It seems you are suggesting that JBL 4367 is the junk food of speakers. This isn't Klipsch. Look at Erin's Audio Corner and you will see these are objectively very good speakers and sound alive at the same time. I'd love to have these an a set of Salon2 in my room to A/B/X but that's not going to happen...Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
I get your point but know the F208 and F228Be aren't small speakers at all!So....what? It is obvious a Revel (or any similarly small speaker) is not going to sound like a JBL 4367, whether the test is done blind, double blind, triple blind - upside down, inverted, next dimension blind or any other kind of blinding event you choose.
Small speakers are small, because they are what sells and what people (and their wives) will accept in their rooms. They are a significant compromise when reproducing sound and are never going to get close to imitating a real sound in the way a high quality large speaker will.
There is just something a large speaker like the JBL does, almost certainly related to how easily and efficiently it moves large amounts of air, that allows it to sound rather truer to life than any small speaker. You can produce as many graphs as you like, this will always and forever remain the same. This is something that is evident not only at loud volumes, but ones well within the smaller speakers limits too.
Small speakers are highly compromised. People won't admit as much because they want to point to x amount of graphs that are besides the point. They are missing the wood for the trees.
Like most things that we wish were, I do not believe so.Out of curiosity, is this preference for horn speakers documented in any of the research with blind testing done by Dr. Toole or others?
Now that comparison should be very illuminating as the 4367 is said to be the passive incarnation of the M2.Like most things that we wish were, I do not believe so.
Many, many, many things that would be cool have tested in blind tests have not yet been done (publicly)
Each Harman product should be blind tested against worthy competition, at least I think they still do that before releasing the product...
The Salon and M2 were tested for fun and results published somewhere.
The only person I am close with who wants that is my Gf's kid Simon and he is 12. He also likes Kale and fresh green juice and eats raw cucumbers like mad. Wild little guy.Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
Wow, talk about the best of both worlds and the Genelec 8351b on top of it. You have access to some of the best speakers on the planet. Have you done a detailed review of 4367 vs Salon2 by chance?Not exactly same position... But personally revel sounded quite bit lean...
Which is better? Depends on condition and Genre but thought 4367 suits my living room better and moved Revel to another room.
About CDs being more dynamic and life-like I disagree though...
In small room I was astonished by 8351...
Just 1.2m away so distance is the limiting factor but still,
compared to the 2.5m 4" compression driver(same room) I found conventional domes can sound so 'real'.
IMHO You don't adjust the volume for speaker sensitivity. That is not possible or helpful IMHO.Yeah, they probably neglected to adjust level for speaker sensivity…now you know just how huge the preference can be when you turn up the volume!
Wow, talk about the best of both worlds and the Genelec 8351b on top of it. You have access to some of the best speakers on the planet. Have you done a detailed review of 4367 vs Salon2 by chance?
What kind of measurements are those?I have measurement at LP, they both are terrible without room correction but salon has a bit more bump on top.
Subjectively I can't find better word then lean.
When my condition is good Salon sounds more wide and airy.
But when bad it is thin and sharp.
Had some fun when watching movies cause salon's stereo magic makes 2ch movies more enjoyable.
Music I prefer warm and dense feeling of 4367.
But I don't get the term 'life like dynamic'. using horns and domes but they all do what they are supposed to, no extra dynamics generated...
Come off it, of course 'you' do.IMHO You don't adjust the volume for speaker sensitivity. That is not possible or helpful IMHO.
Well that's what I meant anyways! OP didn't do it (except roughly by ear, sighted) and left himself exposed IMHO.Matching the speakers anechoic sensitivity/SPL is actually a very nearly impossible task as many elements make this far more complex than we would like.
The best way I have found is to match the average in room steady state SPL from the listening position using pink noise playing only 500-3000hrz. That way the matching is via the mids and lower treble.
Yes, and Salon won. Blind test of course.Like most things that we wish were, I do not believe so.Out of curiosity, is this preference for horn speakers documented in any of the research with blind testing done by Dr. Toole or others?
Many, many, many things that would be cool have tested in blind tests have not yet been done (publicly)
The Salon and M2 were tested for fun and results published somewhere.
It is obvious a Revel (or any similarly small speaker) is not going to sound like a JBL 4367, whether the test is done blind, double blind, triple blind - upside down, inverted, next dimension blind or any other kind of blinding event you choose.
All I can say is, I resemble that remark…and I’m over 60.Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
The stereo portion was sighted. The mono section was blind.Yes, and Salon won. Blind test of course. I bet if it was a sighted test, the outcome would not have been the same, and we would be reading a thread rather like this one!
This may come as somewhat of a shock to you... but not once in my whole-entire-life-ever-so-far have I listened to music for my health. But if I did, I somehow doubt a "bland" speaker (your inference) would be better for me than a speaker I happen to enjoy more.Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
I suspect I'd prefer a wider dispersion speaker in mono, and it's probable that I would have had a slight preference for the Salon had I been at the shootout... But just a guess based on the assumption that my hearing and preferences generally align with the population.Yes, and Salon won. Blind test of course. I bet if it was a sighted test, the outcome would not have been the same, and we would be reading a thread rather like this one!
Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2
A blind listening test was organized and reported on AVS Forum. It ran this weekend and here are the results: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2907816-speaker-shootout-two-most-accurate-well-reviewed-speakers-ever-made-12.html#post54628832 There are the details of tracks on the...www.audiosciencereview.com
Amir's personal listening comparison of Salon and 4367, link.
Well, let me just say that the organiser of the above-mentioned blind test said that participants were often surprised when it was revealed which speaker they were listening to! So much for your dead certainty that it would be 'blindingly' obvious.
People have to stop confusing themselves (and their readers when they report their impressions).At least one attendee owned M2s, bought Salons after the shootout because he preferred them during the shootout, and then lived with both in his home while waiting for the M2s to sell. In the interval, he realised he preferred the M2 in real world listening and sold the Salons.
'Real world' was my term for his listening reports in his own system vs. the shootout.People have to stop confusing themselves (and their readers when they report their impressions).
What he didn't report properly was that it was his cognitive bias that was prejudicing him in favour of the M2 -- ie he preferred the idea of the M2 and couldn't overcome that prejudice when sighted listening.
His decision to report it, even to believe it, as 'preferred the M2 in real world listening', is truly deluded if it is meant to imply he preferred the sound waves when in the 'real world'. He has demonstrated to himself which sound waves he prefers -- the Revel's. But instead of resigning himself to acknowledging that he has to keep the speaker from which he prefers the sound waves less -- because he can't stop his non-sonic prejudices from overwhelming his actual sound wave preference -- he twists it into thinking it has something to do with the test conditions not being realistic.
It's the standard audiophile delusion all over again, ie "what I am hearing, sighted, is so clear that it must be in the sound waves - it simply has to be."
Nope. It ain't.
That's a lot of conclusions from a relatively short text, he didn't even say the shootout was a blind test, just a shootout between two speakers.People have to stop confusing themselves (and their readers when they report their impressions).
What he didn't report properly was that it was his cognitive bias that was prejudicing him in favour of the M2 -- ie he preferred the idea of the M2 and couldn't overcome that prejudice when sighted listening.
His decision to report it, even to believe it, as 'preferred the M2 in real world listening', is truly deluded if it is meant to imply he preferred the sound waves when in the 'real world'. He has demonstrated to himself which sound waves he prefers -- the Revel's. But instead of resigning himself to acknowledging that he has to keep the speaker from which he prefers the sound waves less -- because he can't stop his non-sonic prejudices from overwhelming his actual sound wave preference -- he twists it into thinking it has something to do with the test conditions not being realistic.
It's the standard audiophile delusion all over again, ie "what I am hearing, sighted, is so clear that it must be in the sound waves - it simply has to be."
Nope. It ain't.