Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[sarumbear]

A desktop DAC is even more an niche than an AVR.

You may be mistaken. DACs sell orders of magnitude more than AVRs.

 

[amirm]

1. Getting leadership to agree to spend more on a chip that is indistinguishable from a less expensive one is going to be tough.

Not at all. You put in a more performant design in there, wait for our review praising it and how far it leaves competition in the dust, and you have strong marketing value to enthusiasts -- their target market.

Now, two years ago this factor did not exist. But now it does and Denon is fully aware of it. Indeed, I had read tea leaves that they were trying to do better than last generation. So imagine my surprise when performance went backward. We will have to see if this messaging justifies their cost saving -- assuming that was the case.

 

[hmt]

Oh? Dirac costs extra and is not shipping for a while. Multi-sub support is even farther in the future (2024). But even if it did have these, this is orthogonal to this discussion. They could give us better DAC performance and Dirac. One has nothing to do with the other.


You have no facts. You are posting speculation. Here is fact: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ts-did-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different.23/

That is not proving one could distinguish a 87 db SINAD am from one with 97 db.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Who cares about all this back and forth. Nobody I know can differentiate between -87 and -100 dB. Why are so many calling this a bargain? Why is the equivalent Marantz unit have it's fans and will sell at $700 more? This whole thread has become idiotic. I appreciate the review, wish I could do similar in my home lab, but you do a good job Amir. Being defensive is not helping, though I can imagine this was a difficult decision for you.

 

[Brian6751]

Not at all. You put in a more performant design in there, wait for our review praising it and how far it leaves competition in the dust, and you have strong marketing value to enthusiasts -- their target market.

Now, two years ago this factor did not exist. But now it does and Denon is fully aware of it. Indeed, I had read tea leaves that they were trying to do better than last generation. So imagine my surprise when performance went backward. We will have to see if this messaging justifies their cost saving -- assuming that was the case.

Yeah sure, it makes consumers like us that care about it buy them but what about the much larger masses that don't care? How do you quantify that? Does the increased sales to us wackos make up for the increased expense for the entire market?

 

[Vacceo]

Not at all. You put in a more performant design in there, wait for our review praising it and how far it leaves competition in the dust, and you have strong marketing value to enthusiasts -- their target market.

Now, two years ago this factor did not exist. But now it does and Denon is fully aware of it. Indeed, I had read tea leaves that they were trying to do better than last generation. So imagine my surprise when performance went backward. We will have to see if this messaging justifies their cost saving -- assuming that was the case.

Having the numbers on your side is, IMHO, the best marketing element to back up all the flowery literature about your product. I am no marketing expert, but having the capacity to objectively say that your AVR is comparable to some of the best integrated amps plus you also give an EQ solution as part of the pack, or that your AVP can be used as any high-end preamp like an advertisement hammer. If you also have the actual tests to prove it, in my book it sounds like a very compeling argument.

And who knows, you may even get the bug and get a stereo listener to try multichannel (and thus, convince him to spend in more speakers...).

I may not know much about audio engineering, but having the excellence on your side sound like a very powerful argument to promote your product even in areas where it was not originally intended for.

In a nutshell, I also share your perplexity.

 

[rvsixer]

This thread must have gotten to Denon already...they pulled the 4800 from the US website today .
Hopefully to fix it.....

 

[hmt]

It is always problematic when sciences becomes religious. This is what happens here. This is not audio sciences - it is the church of SINAD. Going down the purity spiral.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Who cares about all this back and forth. Nobody I know can differentiate between -87 and -100 dB. Why are so many calling this a bargain? Why is the equivalent Marantz unit have it's fans and will sell at $700 more? This whole thread has become idiotic. I appreciate the review, wish I could do similar in my home lab, but you do a good job Amir. Being defensive is not helping, though I can imagine this was a difficult decision for you.

I was one of those Marantz fans you’re referring to until I found ASR and didn’t listen to the sale persons horseshit anymore. Tens of thousands of dollars wasted there. Something I would never repeat because ASR exists now.

 

[Brian6751]

Having the numbers on your side is, IMHO, the best marketing element to back up all the flowery literature about your product. I am no marketing expert, but having the capacity to objectively say that your AVR is comparable to some of the best integrated amps plus you also give an EQ solution as part of the pack, or that your AVP can be used as any high-end preamp like an advertisement hammer. If you also have the actual tests to prove it, in my book it sounds like a very compeling argument.

And who knows, you may even get the bug and get a stereo listener to try multichannel (and thus, convince him to spend in more speakers...).

I may not know much about audio engineering, but having the excellence on your side sound like a very powerful argument to promote your product even in areas where it was not originally intended for.

In a nutshell, I also share your perplexity.

If you are using parameters that have no audible effect to market your product as more high end because of it, what is the difference between that and the BS they try to sell cables with?

Is SINAD going to become the new Skin Effect?

 

[hmt]

In a nutshell, I also share your perplexity.

I dont. Maybe Denon figured out that enthusiast care more about dirac than meaningless SINAD numbers. I am grateful for that. The ASR halal AVR would have a SINAD of 120 but no RC, limited hdmi and limited bass management. Did not want to have one of those and I do not care about this 120 db SINAD DACs that can only do on thing and are not even usable as a pre amp and lack features like EQ. And Yes, the market for Desktop audio products may be karge. But the Topping DAC with high SINAD is only a fraction of this market.

 

[Vacceo]

If you are using parameters that have no audible effect to market your product as more high end because of it, what is the difference between that and the BS they try to sell cables with?

Is SINAD going to become the new Skin Effect?

You can sicerily argue that at the power level you deliver, no matter what you plug to the terminals, you will have no noise. You can also argue that whatever those speakers´ dynamic range is, you can essentially match it.

And on top of that, you can eq to taste.

I dont. Maybe Denon figured out that enthusiast care more about dirac than meaningless SINAD numbers.

So much enthusiasm that we do not even know the version of Dirac it will run and how much the extra cost will be. A strange move, honestly.

 

[amirm]

Yeah sure, it makes consumers like us that care about it buy them but what about the much larger masses that don't care?

They are not in the market for this product to begin with due to cost and complexity of setup. As I post from company website, this is clearly for enthusiast market:

 

[Brian6751]

They are not in the market for this product to begin with due to cost and complexity of setup. As I post from company website, this is clearly for enthusiast market:

View attachment 239819

That's marketing

I have a hard time believing that consumers who prioritize SINAD numbers are the target market for this product. I would think we are a niche within a niche within a niche.

 

[amirm]

I dont. Maybe Denon figured out that enthusiast care more about dirac than meaningless SINAD numbers. I am grateful for that.

Once more, they could give you the same or better performance relative to last year *and* Dirac. You have no logical or technical argument as to why the inclusion of Dirac impacted basic performance of the unit.

 

[hmt]

You can sicerily argue that at the power level you deliver, no matter what you plug to the terminals, you will have no noise. You can also argue that whatever those speakers´ dynamic range is, you can essentially match it.

And on top of that, you can eq to taste.


So much enthusiasm that we do not even know the version of Dirac it will run and how much the extra cost will be. A strange move, honestly.

We do know the version. And the impact of RC on SQ is dimensions above an increased SINAD. At least when you dont fall for papers that tested two Amps from the 80s to prove that SINAD makes an audible difference...

 

[Vacceo]

It is always problematic when sciences becomes religious. This is what happens here. This is not audio sciences - it is the church of SINAD. Going down the purity spiral.

The main problem here is that you pay more for something that is the same from previous generation. Yeah, you pay for a promise of Dirac, software tha you´ll have to pay extra to get.

We do know the version. And the impact of RC on SQ is dimensions above an increased SINAD. At least when you dont fall for papers that tested two Amps from the 80s to prove that SINAD makes an audible difference...

Why should I get a Denon for Dirac and pay extra when I can get something that includes Dirac already? Because as a customer, that would be my main reasoning discounting all tech jargon.

 

[amirm]

I have a hard time believing that consumers who prioritize SINAD numbers are the target market for this product. I would think we are a niche within a niche within a niche.

THD+N and hence SINAD is a fundamental performance metric for any audio device. Consumers won't care if no one provides it. But when someone like me does, it impacts a segment of their market. Why else were they unhappy with my measurements in the past if it didn't matter?

 

[hmt]

Once more, they could give you the same or better performance relative to last year *and* Dirac. You have no logical or technical argument as to why the inclusion of Dirac impacted basic performance of the unit.

And you dont have a logical argument for your focus on SINAD. And again: you dont know if they could, you just speculate. Even if they could it does not matter any bit more. For that reason I could as well get another cable that measures somehow better in some metrics - becaus it could be better. But I dont. I am a pragmatic guy.

 

[GalZohar]

How "virtually" is this? And what would be the reason to accept the regression while paying so much more?

Let's keep in mind that the discontinuation of AKM DAC ICs hit the entire industry. Desktop DAC companies switched to ESS DAC ICs while more or less maintaining the same performance. Whereas Denon chose to switch to a much lower performance DAC IC and sharply increase the cost of the unit as well. I don't how this should be something acceptable as to encourage the company with a thumbs up.

Let's remember that these products are aimed at enthusiasts and not mass market. This is the tag line for this product at Denon: "Home Theater Enthusiasts Rejoice." Enthusiasts demand the best performance not what may be good enough. For good enough get a $300 AVR or soundbar.

It is acceptable as long as the competition don't offer better products, as unfortunate as it may be.