Kef r3 vs Wharfdale Linton 85 (My comparison)

[ROOSKIE]

That is the impression i made based on few cabinet resonance measurements available from Stereophile.

Where did that quote came from ? I'd like to read the full text.

This an age old argument. The designs ultimate presentation can be made successful with either approach.
If you search through the DIY forums there will be many conversations.
Here is one I found with a super quick search.

BBC-style thin-walled cabinets vs. tight bass? - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

Want a second or third opinion about your speaker cabinet design or other audio related problem? Post your question or comment on the Technical Discussion Board. Hundreds of technicians, engineers, and hobbyists, nationwide read and discuss electronics related questions each week. We welcome...

techtalk.parts-express.com

I suspect Harbeth begin using thin walls to save weight and save $ and not for other reasons. They became familiar with that approach, refined it well enough and have no reason to change. Now it is all marketing.
This is why I bet Buchardt uses thin walls, to save on international shipping.

Curving the cabinets is a very good approach and also deals well with internal standing waves.

Companies like REVEL and KEF use advanced laser examinations to build cabinets properly braced. You can't really just throw weight and bracing at it as that can backfire and also lead to those 500lb Wilson things.
I made some speakers in concrete enclosures and they vibrated like crazy. I was very easy to feel vibration on the walls, however I don't know if it was audible. But at the time it took me by surprise.
You can also end up channeling the cabinet vibrations back to the driver and driver basket if the cab is to ridged. That is not good and I think one of my designs has this issue a little bit but again I can't isolate in a way to determine an audible problem.
Obviously, some other person with more knowledge than myself may chime in with better info.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Have you tried tightening the driver screws? There's a massive fan thread over at Hoffman forums... Loose screws seems to be a known issue.

I just checked.
A few were loose on each mid and woofer.
I don't think they were loose enough to really cause an issue but I will listen tmrw and see if I perceive anything differently.

I did also plug the ports quickly and discovered the Mid is not very well sealed from the woofer. Again not sure if it really matters in these but pressing on the woofer with the ports plugged moves the mid quite a bit more than zero and pretty responsively on both units. The mid also rebounds very quickly and when pressed in, even when held in for a few seconds. Hmm, again prolly not a huge deal but not great from a 'feeling of quality' standpoint either. Oh well, budget constraints are real.

 

[Zvu]

I just checked.
A few were loose on each mid and woofer.
I don't think they were loose enough to really cause an issue but I will listen tmrw and see if I perceive anything differently.

I did also plug the ports quickly and discovered the Mid is not very well sealed from the woofer. Again not sure if it really matters in these but pressing on the woofer with the ports plugged moves the mid quite a bit more than zero and pretty responsively on both units. The mid also rebounds very quickly and when pressed in, even when held in for a few seconds. Hmm, again prolly not a huge deal but not great from a 'feeling of quality' standpoint either. Oh well, budget constraints are real.

It matters a ton. Midrange should be in a compression chamber that will keep the cone from woofer influence. I wouldn't jump to any judgement about the sound before i adress those issues. Do a quick 1m gated measurement just to see if everything works as it should. It sounds as if yours were made in the night shift

Just checked the screws on mine, they are fine. Plugged the ports to see if the midrange responds to woofer cone pressing - no movement whatsoever on both loudspeakers.

This an age old argument. The designs ultimate presentation can be made successful with either approach.
If you search through the DIY forums there will be many conversations.
.........

I was not interested in DIY forums talks but some whitepaper or a patent that explains how to successfully "tune" the thin walls to a zero sum vibrations - since i'm not buying that story as is.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Do a quick 1m gated measurement just to see if everything works as it should. It sound as if yours were made in the night shift

Yah, I am going measure them and pull the mids and seal the chamber. I can see from Erin Audio's pics this looks pretty straight forward to deal with but I wish Wharfedale had done it correctly. Oh well. After that maybe a better experience? We will see.
Sometimes it is the little things that matter, and yah the leaky mid chamber might be bigger than little I suppose.

 

[Zvu]

.....Oh well. After that maybe a better experience? We will see....

Or maybe you still won't like it - or you'll dislike it a little less

Whatever the outcome, you gave it your best shot and that's what counts in my book.

 

[cavedriver]

Have you tried tightening the driver screws? There's a massive fan thread over at Hoffman forums... Loose screws seems to be a known issue.

you mean on the Lintons? huh, yeah, the Lintons. Checked the screws on mine, some a little lose, but more fascinating is that I bought them open box from Crutchfield and they are non-consecutive serial numbers with one having torx screws on the drivers and the other having phillips. So different production dates as well. Still quite sloppy bass with the screws tightened but it's likely mine have been damaged by my amp and they are sitting on a desk with too much bass coupling despite some sorbothane pucks.

 

[192kbps]

In China, it only costs $599 a pair. But few people bought it, people seem to have stereotypes about the brand.

 

[cavedriver]

In China, it only costs $599 a pair. But few people bought it, people seem to have stereotypes about the brand

Inflation has hit the UK hard apparently. They were under 1000 pounds just a couple months ago and I just checked Richer Sounds and they are up to 1250 a pair, so almost the same price as the US now. Guess I shouldn't have said anything here on the forums about how much cheaper the UK is than the US right now because that difference seems to have been wiped out by their inflation...

 

[ahofer]

That is the impression i made based on few cabinet resonance measurements available from Stereophile.

Where did that quote came from ? I'd like to read the full text.

Harbeth User Group, that's Alan Shaw himself. You have to join.

The Harbeth User Group

Harbeth manufacturer's forum for serious discussion about audio

www.harbeth.co.uk

 

[Zvu]

Oh and also did anyone try these with tilted stands? Would it fuck up the sound too much (bass build-up from behind?)?

Pic with tilted stands:

https://preview.redd.it/jlgwsl2njoz61.jpg?auto=webp&s=4ae2a13d7b86080d32e8889a2067a9d9f233ca95

It will work a little different than intended since one boundary is slightly closer - but you do need to listen to it.

If you have these speakers, simulate lower stand with books to get the idea.

 

[oceansize]

Inflation has hit the UK hard apparently. They were under 1000 pounds just a couple months ago and I just checked Richer Sounds and they are up to 1250 a pair, so almost the same price as the US now. Guess I shouldn't have said anything here on the forums about how much cheaper the UK is than the US right now because that difference seems to have been wiped out by their inflation...

Makes the current £999 for a pair of R3s seem even more of a bargain.

 

[cavedriver]

Makes the current £999 for a pair of R3s seem even more of a bargain.

yeah, price increases seem to be rolling in a bit randomly across industries and companies. Some companies are really holding the line while others seem to have gone a little crazy with increases. maybe because Wharfedale is getting these made in China they are seeing increases in supply costs.

 

[Zvu]

Everything is made in China - otherwise you wouldn't be able to afford it

Kef is also China based company. Prices go up as Kef/Wharfedale/Whateva' management see fit.

 

[oceansize]

yeah, price increases seem to be rolling in a bit randomly across industries and companies. Some companies are really holding the line while others seem to have gone a little crazy with increases. maybe because Wharfedale is getting these made in China they are seeing increases in supply costs.

I think the R3s are also made in China. The difference is that the Wharfedale brand is owned by IAG - who are a Chinese concern - and KEF is (as far as I know) still a UK company. Probably has more to do with currency fluctuations than inflation.

 

[cavedriver]

Everything is made in China - otherwise you wouldn't be able to afford it

Kef is also China based company. Prices go up as Kef/Wharfedale/Whateva' management see fit.

KEF annoys me because "Rx" sounds like a number for a "Reference" series product, but no, they are two entirely different products (and price points). I only mention this because the Reference speakers are made in the UK, but I assume you are correct that the R's are made in China.

 

[DSJR]

This an age old argument. The designs ultimate presentation can be made successful with either approach.
If you search through the DIY forums there will be many conversations.
Here is one I found with a super quick search.

BBC-style thin-walled cabinets vs. tight bass? - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

Want a second or third opinion about your speaker cabinet design or other audio related problem? Post your question or comment on the Technical Discussion Board. Hundreds of technicians, engineers, and hobbyists, nationwide read and discuss electronics related questions each week. We welcome...

techtalk.parts-express.com

I suspect Harbeth begin using thin walls to save weight and save $ and not for other reasons. They became familiar with that approach, refined it well enough and have no reason to change. Now it is all marketing.
This is why I bet Buchardt uses thin walls, to save on international shipping.

Curving the cabinets is a very good approach and also deals well with internal standing waves.

Companies like REVEL and KEF use advanced laser examinations to build cabinets properly braced. You can't really just throw weight and bracing at it as that can backfire and also lead to those 500lb Wilson things.
I made some speakers in concrete enclosures and they vibrated like crazy. I was very easy to feel vibration on the walls, however I don't know if it was audible. But at the time it took me by surprise.
You can also end up channeling the cabinet vibrations back to the driver and driver basket if the cab is to ridged. That is not good and I think one of my designs has this issue a little bit but again I can't isolate in a way to determine an audible problem.
Obviously, some other person with more knowledge than myself may chime in with better info.

Harbeth AKA Dudley Harwood used the same cabinet style as competitors Spendor and Rogers I understand, the HL box very slightly shallower and a tad wider to make them look different to the BC1 and Rogers equivalent models. Alan Shaw went over to thin wall MDF as his cabinet makers were complaining about it I remember. he made a big thing about ply being low mass and less easily corner-damaged than the then ubiquitous chipboard used back then.

@ahofer should conform, but recently and in response to the me-too competitiors using ply cabls, AS specified fresh cabs in ply and then set about checking them for air-bubbles/voids and other flaws these cabinets so often exhibit (his words). Higher cost and lower mass than the mdf, he left the question open ended (as he sometimes does) but the implication is that there were issues in the ply itself as regards resonances around the structure.

My SHL5's weigh a lot more than my old knackered Spendor BC2's do (same internal volume) and the Rogers LS5/9's I had were pretty damned solid as well and it wasn't all in the driver magnet either! I should add that when I managed to prise the SHL5 grilles off after eleven years or so, the drivers were still *tight* and needed no more tightening at all. Sloppy fixings can kill an otherwise good speaker design...

 

[oceansize]

Inflation has hit the UK hard apparently. They were under 1000 pounds just a couple months ago and I just checked Richer Sounds and they are up to 1250 a pair, so almost the same price as the US now. Guess I shouldn't have said anything here on the forums about how much cheaper the UK is than the US right now because that difference seems to have been wiped out by their inflation...

That £1250 is inclusive of stands, £1100 without.

 

[muad]

you mean on the Lintons? huh, yeah, the Lintons. Checked the screws on mine, some a little lose, but more fascinating is that I bought them open box from Crutchfield and they are non-consecutive serial numbers with one having torx screws on the drivers and the other having phillips. So different production dates as well. Still quite sloppy bass with the screws tightened but it's likely mine have been damaged by my amp and they are sitting on a desk with too much bass coupling despite some sorbothane pucks.

No, I was referring to @ROOSKIE complaining of weird fast onset listening fatigue with the lintons.

The guys in the Hoffman forums were complaining about the mids and fatigue caused by the mid driver screws being loose. That could be the cause of ROOSKIE's issue.

 

[Kachda]

I think the R3s are also made in China. The difference is that the Wharfedale brand is owned by IAG - who are a Chinese concern - and KEF is (as far as I know) still a UK company. Probably has more to do with currency fluctuations than inflation.

Kef’s parent company is GP, which is Chinese.

 

[ROOSKIE]

No, I was referring to @ROOSKIE complaining of weird fast onset listening fatigue with the lintons.

The guys in the Hoffman forums were complaining about the mids and fatigue caused by the mid driver screws being loose. That could be the cause of ROOSKIE's issue.

Yah, so my plan is to listen for awhile Sunday and then measure a few parameters and then take the midrange out and seal up the sub enclosure for said mid, give the caulking a day to dry and then listen. I will remeasure as well see if anything obvious pops up. I thought about doing one at a time and comparing in mono but decided just do both at once.

I am curious if anyone else wants to see check their mids and see if theirs have properly isolated space. Plug the ports and gently but decidedly push the 8" woofer in and see if there is movement in the mid. @Zvu did not have this issue, nor a loose screw issue.