Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Skylarlove1999]

Amir Senpai is not "insinuating" anything. He merely states simple facts.
Fact is: Gene is most likely under pressure from Denon.
We don't know whether he will resist and keep an objective mind or whether he will cave and try to paint a pretty picture in order to do damage control.

We all hope he does the former of course, because more measurements, more transparency and more honesty is always better. maybe not for Denon's bottom line (if they truly botched it and it wasn't just one wonky unit) but certainly for us.
But one has to be blind to not see that there is a potential conflict of interest here.

It would certainly be hard for me to put out a brutally honest review, if I had good relations with a company and wanted to keep it that way.


Word of advice: learn when to let go.
This is the internet, there are ignore functions. If a poster is out on a vendetta, report unsuitable behavior let the mods deal with it.

Oh and feed them one of those: <°)))><
There is no point in arguing publicly and derailing threads, especially when the blood starts to boil. Trust me, I learned that the hard way myself.

Your last piece of advice is very good advice and I thank you for that. I should have just ignored it. You are absolutely right.

 

[Synapse00]

joined and donated based on this thread.


Thank you @amirm for your hard work to make our hobby better and your patience of Job.

Thank you @Skylarlove1999 for reminding us we are all human and we should all strive to own our actions and do better every day in whatever way we can. (mean it sincerely, not joking, thank you)

 

[kokishin]

So I am sure this will be my last post.

What is your definition of "last"?

You've posted multiple times since you stated this was gonna be your last post. You did that in avsforum as well.

I don't care if you continue posting. But don't claim it's gonna be your last post and then keep on posting.

Speaking as a Denon owner (X6200W), perhaps you should let the pros at Sound United or Denon chime in when they're ready (presuming they will). With your incessant carrying on in two forums no less, you may make it more difficult for Denon to dig themselves out of this hole you keep digging for them.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Unless Amir communicated with Gene and was told he is under pressure than your comments and Amir's comments are pure speculation and insinuation.

While certainly not akin to hard evidence, I find the aggressiveness in the quoted comments to be somewhat telling.

Agreeing or not agreeing on measurement standards that may be too harsh on the side of Amir, the first thing I would have done is contact him directly, asking for details about what might have been the issue, next I would have used my contacts at Denon and measure myself to help figure things out. THEN I would have posted a public answer linked to hard data. Until then, all you would have gotten is a "I will investigate as soon as I can".

I would not have said "ASR is out to trash products". That's just unprofessional behavior and helps no one. The fact that a tiny phone dongle has superior performance compared to expensive products I promote would worry me, not make me go all defensive mode.

What is your definition of "last"?

He just assumed that @Thomas savage would swing Mjöllnir and he'd get no further chance.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

joined and donated based on this thread.


Thank you @amirm for your hard work to make our hobby better and your patience of Job.

Thank you @Skylarlove1999 for reminding us we are all human and we should all strive to own our actions and do better every day in whatever way we can. (mean it sincerely, not joking, thank you)

Thank you for that. It probably won't win you any support being kind to me but I greatly appreciate it.

 

[carlob]

Out of curiosity: is there any market data available for HT devices? Like market share by manufacturer, number of pieces sold, something like that

 

[Skylarlove1999]

What is your definition of "last"?

You've posted multiple times since you stated this was gonna be your last post. You did that in avsforum as well.

I don't care if you continue posting. But don't claim it's gonna be your last post and then keep on posting.

Speaking as a Denon owner (X6200W), perhaps you should let the pros at Sound United or Denon chime in when they're ready (presuming they will). With your incessant carrying on in two forums no less, you may make it more difficult for Denon to dig themselves out of this hole you keep digging for them.

I can understand why you might feel that way. Unfortunately Sound United and Denon folks cannot come on here to begin a dialogue. I explained why I had such a visceral response to Amir trashing Denon. Sincerely I regret attacking Amir's credibility. It was an emotional response. We all have them from time to time. That passion can work for you and against you at times. I readily admit my shortcomings.

 

[Thomas savage]

So one person here can't forgive me and keeps attacking me and I respond and you try to publicly shame and bully me. So you are doing the same thing you accuse me of doing . I am sure this will get me banned because you were already looking for an excuse. So we are supposed to think you are unbiased? Doesn't quite seem like that. You decided to make this conversation public instead of sending me a private message. I would have gladly discussed this with you there but you wanted to throw your weight around. You have the power here. So I am sure this will be my last post.

I'm aware of your improper conduct here and abuse of our conversation system . Those messages can be reported and seen by management Btw.

Thread ban issued , you clearly have nothing of worth to contribute to this thread .

 

[nemanja_t]

"Full time" youtubers could only survive by pledging alliance to manufacturers, in terms of financial interest or just keeping on good terms so they could have access to an equipment. In this arangement there are more like second hand car salesman then reviewer. If marketing is a job, man can not expect honesty.

 

[kokishin]

He just assumed that @Thomas savage would swing Mjöllnir and he'd get no further chance.

Swung! This guy (now thread banned here ) claimed to be a buddy of the Sound United CEO. With friends like that...

 

[peng]

A truthful but PR based answer could sound like :

“All of our gear exceeds the advertised specifications, which we believe to be the threshold of audibility for most customers. Nevertheless, we encourage customers to speak with their retailer to understand the differences between our product line. We acknowledge that the x4700H has worse measured 2 channel performance from the x3600H due to the new 8K support and the added processing power needed for Auro3D. This worse performance will not be audible to most individuals while the support for ALLM and Auro3D are benefits seen by most end users. We get this was a good trade off for the price point that we are
targeting. Our 2 channel products such as the Marantz PM-10 and internationally available Denon PMA-SX1 Limited remain our best 2 channel systems, when paired with their corresponding SACD/DACs. “

Do you have copy right?

 

[Sancus]

It is possible there is some complex interaction going on between my HDMI output and what these devices are doing with it. There is unfortunately no visibility into it as the AVRs/Processors don't provide any information in this regard.

It could be that the HDMI input assumes there are always more than 2 channel and some summing is going on with the silent channels which then results in some kind of overflow. Or there is some transformation going on with audio output over Intel HDMI I don't know.

Denon folks could easily troubleshoot this at this end as they can probe what the AVR thinks is receiving and doing. It is a black box to me so I can't do the same.

Thanks for the response, I guess what I'm asking is whether this is the same issue as in the Arcam AV40 review and that -1dB input resolves it. So basically many AVRs can't accept 0dB input over HDMI without going crazy.

 

[North_Sky]

Audioholics is there to promote the brand's , we are here to promote the consumer.

It's no surprise they react the way they do

Thomas, a simple question: Have you frequented Audioholics in the past?

 

[North_Sky]

Someone got caught up in the moment.
Conclusion before measurement is not good methodology.

- Rich

Rich, one of the most respectable and gentle members @ The Lounge (Emotiva), AVSF, Audioholics, ASR, ...

 

[raistlin65]

BUT, for two channel performance where maximum transparency is desired, the X4700H does worse than the X3600H which does worse than a lower-priced 2 ch USB DAC. For two channel performance, the X4700H does much worse with HDMI input versus Coaxial SPDIF.

Given the wide dynamic range of blu-ray, why isn't multichannel performance just as important as stereo for maximum transparency? For me, I want performance just as good from both.

 

[North_Sky]

I'm not contradicting you. Just pointing out that the new HDMI 2.1 board has a single HDMI 2.1 40GHz input and two HDMI 2.1 40GHz outputs, one of which supports eARC. Should be an even more interesting design challenge in the future, when all HDMI inputs and outputs support 48GHz.

Yamaha's coming up next / HDMI 2.1 (8K) ...
▪ https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1578904789

I know nothing, this world is beyond me; I'm just a simple caveman.

 

[Thomas savage]

Member @Skylarlove1999 has been banned for repeatedly sending abusive messages to various members through our conversation system. I'd encourage all of you to report these sorts of things , it's unacceptable behaviour .

Now Please can we get back to the OP.

Cheers

 

[Todd74]

It’s not a downgrade for home theater since you get Auro3D, and more speakers probably makes for a more immersive experience, especially when the difference in SINAD may be below the threshold for most. I think even @amirm has said that Denon/Marantz remain a strong choice for installers due to the very reliable HDMI CEC feature set.

BUT, for two channel performance where maximum transparency is desired, the X4700H does worse than the X3600H which does worse than a lower-priced 2 ch USB DAC. For two channel performance, the X4700H does much worse with HDMI input versus Coaxial SPDIF.

I think this is where consumer focused companies get separated from profits focused companies. They don’t even need to be exclusionary. Chevron makes a lot of profits and they clearly are not a consumer focused company. However, when talking about Techron additives, they are very transparent in saying that Techron is already added to their gasoline, so no additional additive is needed. They are part of the Top Tier fuel consortium, which ended up getting support from the automotive manufacturers.

Going back to Denon, now that Sound United is playing in the ultra high end space with Classe and Bowers and Wilkins soon, I really hope they take on an evolved stance.

A truthful but PR based answer could sound like :

“All of our gear exceeds the advertised specifications, which we believe to be the threshold of audibility for most customers. Nevertheless, we encourage customers to speak with their retailer to understand the differences between our product line. We acknowledge that the x4700H has worse measured 2 channel performance from the x3600H due to the new 8K support and the added processing power needed for Auro3D. This worse performance will not be audible to most individuals while the support for ALLM and Auro3D are benefits seen by most end users. We get this was a good trade off for the price point that we are
targeting. Our 2 channel products such as the Marantz PM-10 and internationally available Denon PMA-SX1 Limited remain our best 2 channel systems, when paired with their corresponding SACD/DACs. “

Makes sense. But I’ll add— When purchasing a $1600+ All-in-One AVR, the sound quality of 2 channel music should at least match that of a $400 stereo IMO. I tend to think that the average consumer not only can’t afford to spend an additional 1k on an integrated amp with HT bypass to correct an issue that his $1600 AVR can’t solve, but that he also wouldn’t want to spend the extra money to do after dropping $1600 on an AVR, and so his music listening is forced to suffer.

I simply don’t see it as an excuse to say, “But look at all the features this thing offers”, in attempt to rationalize poor 2 channel performance of a $1600 unit, not when the 3600 already succeeded as Amir alluded.

The manufacturers have no problem with, for all intents and purposes, taking a thousand dollar X3600 and focusing attention on minimally juicing up its amplifier and slightly increasing the features to sell us a 1600 dollar version, so why can’t they do the same for 2 channel performance?

 

[RichB]

Rich, one of the most respectable and gentle members @ The Lounge (Emotiva), AVSF, Audioholics, ASR, ...

I’m blushing.

I don’t care for needless conflict and personal attacks. I have written reviews for AH, have spoken with Gene on occasion, and I know he fights the good fight. He and I share an ethnic heritage, known for passionate ...... discussion.

Happy Father’s Day to fellow fathers.

- Rich

 

[North_Sky]

I’m blushing.

I don’t care for needless conflict and personal attacks. I have written reviews for AH, have spoken with Gene on occasion, and I know he fights the good fight. He and I share an ethnic heritage, known for passionate ...... discussion.

Happy Father’s Day to fellow fathers.

- Rich

Happy Father's Day!
_____

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