Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[Jinjuku]

A Bryston amp is considerably more expensive for them to produce as the entire design is custom. They did not buy a couple of modules and put them in a lightweight box. You can't keep comparing them. Here are the guts of the Byrston $4k amp:

The case plus shipping to the dealer likely will cost as much as a Hypex amp module! So yes, they cost more money to design and sell. They have to feed a lot more people with each one. And they provided incredible warranty to support their products.

I'm not the one comparing them! You are.

So yes I believe, that like you, I can bring up any comparison I want.

So what if Bryston's entire design is custom and therefore more expensive? That is again a Bryston problem especially if they are getting their asses handed to them by OEM modules.

Some may take their chances to get 7-10 years of faithful service out of a Hypex based system based on their usage patterns. How does a Bryston measure after 20 years vs the day it was produced?

I would say that the SOTA will have moved forward after 20 years. How does a 20 year old Bryston compare to $1000 SOTA Class D that you can purchase today?

 

[Jinjuku]

Not here. I am willing to pay more as are others for better caps. But the option is not provided by the supplier who can do so the cheapest (Hypex). Upgrading after the fact is made much harder by a) gluing the caps and b) using small form factor caps, tightly put next to each other.

Yes it is here with the Hypex based amps. They aren't $7000.

You are seeming not wanting to accept the market realities that you can not purchase a hypex based system that is to your liking and to your unrealistic $200 for all the ask you have for it. In this I see issue ;-)

 

[amirm]

Not sure if the root cause is to be directed at Hypex or Apollon.

It is directed at Hypex. Apollon can't do more than they have done, and offered to do.

 

[amirm]

I'm not the one comparing them! You are.

I didn't bring up Bryston. Someone else did:

i don't think bryston takes the risk to give 20 years warranty on amps with low end chinese capacitors

 

[amirm]

You are seeming not wanting to accept the market realities that you can not purchase a hypex based system that is to your liking and to your unrealistic $200 for all the ask you have for it. In this I see issue ;-)

I ask for better products in just about every review I do. Where have you been? That is the core charter of this forum. I analyze products and determine if a better job could be done. Most of the time this is about measurements but it also encompasses features, design, safety, and in this case, hardware reliability.

Two years ago Schiit literally produced Schiit products. That market reality has changed. Now they produce superlative products. And every day we see another manufacture striving to do even better. Indeed there is a race on to see who can be the best of the best. I like to see that same change come to reliability when issues are found. Whether it is sloppy assembly or lower grade part selection. If the market reality never delivers on that, then fine. I have done my bit but the rest of you did not by putting pressure on manufacturers to do better.

And where did you get the "unrealistic" bit from? $200 more than pays for for better caps and margin for the channel.

 

[PierreV]

BP's own Mola Mola Kula ($13,800 is the list price I could find) seems to rely on the same capacitors.
I am inclined to believe BP knows what he is doing.
I have trouble following the logic of this thread now: Amir already gave it strong recommendation based on the measurements, then confirmed the build quality was outstanding (relative to other Hypex integrators) but now he's fighting hard about cap choice in the power supply?

Assuming the power supply blows a cap, the whole thing doesn't seem to be too expensive at 240 EUR anyway.
If my own 600A400 blew, would I recap them? Yeah, maybe if I had no other option. But that one is only 120 EUR

A bit puzzled by the whole logic of the thread tbh

 

[amirm]

So what if Bryston's entire design is custom and therefore more expensive? That is again a Bryston problem especially if they are getting their asses handed to them by OEM modules.

The heck you are asking me about? I am not telling you to buy Bryston anything. Answering anyway, they have a major brand that carries the company for a long while. Poll 100 audiophiles and see how many have heard of Bryston versus Hypex companies we are talking about. Whether that is the wrong model longer term is for them to figure out, not me.

Some may take their chances to get 7-10 years of faithful service out of a Hypex based system based on their usage patterns. How does a Bryston measure after 20 years vs the day it was produced?

I don't know about either. What I do know is that I sleep easier with a power amp that is using good grade of components. Not asking for each component to be hand sifted and such. Just use top branded caps like every experienced design engineer would tell you.

You come from IT world. Would you want a server to use these no-name caps in their power supplies? I trust not. Same here. For an audiophile it would be hell if their amp fails. I went to a friend's house to listen to his system and his amp would not power on. Poor guy was in so much embarrassment and pain. I helped him troubleshoot it and it was aftermarket fuses he had put in that was intermittent. Imagine if it had stayed broken. It would have hit him emotionally much more than real cost.

 

[RayDunzl]

A bit puzzled by the whole logic of the thread tbh

1. Find something to complain about.

2. Complain.

3. Rebut.

4. Repeat 1, 2 or 3, or 1 and 2, or 2 and 3, or any other combination.

 

[Jinjuku]

Two years ago Schiit literally produced Schiit products.

Schiits issues were of engineering and not parts. Don't red herring this.

 

[Jinjuku]

And where did you get the "unrealistic" bit from? $200 more than pays for for better caps and margin for the channel.

Whether or not you brought Bryston into the conversation with $4000 and $7000 amps, you were more than happy to run with it.

If you want a Hypex design to have the ability in hardware to stand up to a 20 year warranty don't expect it for $2400 a channel if they can get $7000 a channel and offer a 20 year warranty.

I would like everything from my leaf blower to my house to have this, that, and the other. But I've have purchased what I have purchased and I put in the research for these purchases in consideration of the $$ I've out layed.

When I needed a workstation capable of running a ton of emulation I went and spent the $$ on something with 24 logical cores, 128GB of RAM and 2TB of SSD storage for $4700. I'll get 10 years out of it. When I wanted a multi-media PC for a spare office I picked up a Lenovo for $159 on eBay and I ran it almost 24/7 in 2016 up until a month a go. Are there things I wanted in the Lenovo that it's never going to come with. Sure. Are there things the manufacturer could potentially improve? Sure. Am I going to get it for $159? Nope.

 

[Jinjuku]

You come from IT world. Would you want a server to use these no-name caps in their power supplies? I trust not. Same here.

Yes I come from the IT world. I understand the differences between a $16,000 Cisco Nexus 9K QFSP core switch and don't whine that I can't get that in a $500 TP-Link.

Now if I pulled the cover off the Cisco and discovered TP-Link guts I would be upset as I'm not getting what I paid for.

I'm going to say this: You are getting an incredibly well measuring, very high output, audiophile amplifier for ONLY $2400 a channel. You want more you pay more.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I have to agree with you @Jinjuku.

Hypex's business model, which they don't make any attempt to obscure IMO, is SOTA performance at no-frills prices. If you want guaranteed decades+ reliability and ongoing customer support on top of that, look elsewhere.

Moreover, if @DS23MAN's experience is accurate, which I've no reason to doubt, the caps are simply not the weakest link in this product. Why would I agitate to have them redo these modules with better spec'd caps, given some other component in the module is more likely to fail first, anyway?

 

[RayDunzl]

The electrons are good for 66,000 yottayears.

I don't know why the rest of it can't keep up.

 

[Massimo]

Hypex have been building these SMPS modules for some 10-15 years and have sold tens of thousands of units.

To technicians/repairers: How many have you seen in your workshop for capacitor replacements?

@restorer-john, anyone?

 

[Jinjuku]

Hypex's business model, which they don't make any attempt to obscure IMO, is SOTA performance at no-frills prices. If you want guaranteed decades+ reliability and ongoing customer support on top of that, look elsewhere.

Ding, ding, ding...

Taking price out of the equation Amir has, from a parts view, a 100% correct point. If Hypex could get the market to accept a doubling or even triple the price and offer 7 or 10 year warranty with equivalent MTBF rating and sell them in the numbers they need I'm sure they would.

But you can not compare this unit in it's totality to either a $399 Crown with a promotional 6 year warranty, or a $7000 Bryston with it's 20 year warranty.

BTW I run with a Crown XLS 1500 and have had it for ~7 years now without fail. It makes good enough music for these ears of mine.

 

[samsa]

Hypex have been building these SMPS modules for some 10-15 years and have sold tens of thousands of units.

To technicians/repairers: How many have you seen in your workshop for capacitor replacements?

@restorer-john, anyone?

We already had one report in this thread of an older SMPS1200 which failed. It used Samwha caps; the current shipping SMPS1200 appears to use Su'scon caps.

Oh, and the total number of units shipped is in the hundreds, not tens, of thousands.

 

[BDWoody]

The electrons are good for 66,000 yottayears.

...

I think my head just exploded trying to process that.

 

[PeteL]

There is an inherent inefficiency in the Hypex business model because of extra middlemen. Margins for the module manufacturer to produce for Hypex, margins for Hypex to provide the modules to integrator and margins for the integrator/brand label.

Traditional amp makers who create their own designs have only two of those so, in theory, can afford to provide better service at cheaper prices.

That's a simplistic way of looking at this. There are huge savings in fixed cost in not making your own developpment. Plus yes Hypex get its margins, but they have volume, a manufacturer that would like to produce like 500-1000 amplifiers (Already a very decent number) can't get that done for what Hypex can manage, so even if they take their margin, it's not automatically more expensive, not for small manufacturers anyway.

 

[amirm]

I'm going to say this: You are getting an incredibly well measuring, very high output, audiophile amplifier for ONLY $2400 a channel. You want more you pay more.

I am willing to pay more. As are others. We are asking that options to be made available to us. What you are doing, I don't know.

 

[amirm]

Whether or not you brought Bryston into the conversation with $4000 and $7000 amps, you were more than happy to run with it.

I have not run with it whatsoever. First Alan brought up Bryston, then you. You ask me questions about it, so I answer. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with this topic. We have a module that has lower quality parts than I expect and many other engineers would. It has nothing to do with anything else. I am not advocating anyone to buy Bryston. I am advocating them buying Hypex based amps but now have to explain that the part quality is not what I like to see.