What do floor standers really bring to the table?

[Kal Rubinson]

But in a lot of cases, its just more bass extension because the speaker have bigger cabinet, its just more bass with less distortion..?
Example Spendor A1 and A2

So what. You are just making a quite personal evaluation about the parameters.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

So in this case which one is better?

Again. Better by what standard?

 

[HighImpactAV]

 

[Gurkerl]

Based on my limited experience I would have said nothing, except usually more outuput at any given voltage with more extension in the low end, usually at the cost of more uneven dispersion and frequency response. Integrating one or more subwoofers to your bookshelves yourself is a lot harder than just buying the bigger speakers and no subs, but the results should be well worth it - and also a lot cheaper to achieve true full range sound.
So the answer to your question could be simplicity. Some people don't want to fuss with subs, so they just buy the bigger speaker and leave it at that. Without room correction and subs, it's probably safe to say that more people will prefer the big speakers over the small ones, simply because more information in the recording is presented.
With room correction and subs, however, you can get everything you want from floorstanders, out of bookshelves (assuming you achieve the desired spl with sufficient headroom at the listening position).

However, one thing Amir wrote in his review of the Triangle Esprit Antal Ez stuck with me: "As a way of comparison, I put my Revel M16 next to the Triangle on a stand. While tonality and to some extent clarity was better on the Revel, the sound was clearly localized to a smaller source vertically, leaving a preference for the Triangle for the larger, more realistic image it portrayed."
How much of that is just bias on Amir's part, and how much of that is real? Is this something we can measure? It sounds logical that having more drivers/a bigger area reproduce certain frequencies would lead to a bigger "scale" - but is that really it? I would love to know, what others thought about that

 

[MattHooper]

Did you use a measurement or even a sub crawl to determine ideal placement or just went with what was "available"?

I did a bit of a sub crawl (and had the sound doctor stuff etc). However I was ultimately pretty limited in where the subs could be placed permanently. So for instance about 2 feet behind my speakers, along the back wall. (Also tried diagonal placements in the room, which I could also have lived with, and a few others, for "academic" purposes to see if they would work).

Again, I was only willing to go so far in the amount of effort I'd devote to subwoofers in the room. A lot of people don't have total flexibility to place a sub wherever they want. I was in that camp. The Dspeaker Anti Mode helped, and I heard some good things with the subs - a bit more overall weight and depth to the sound, a bit smoother bass. But ultimately preferred the sound without.

 

[MattHooper]

Who in the full use of their senses thinks that one (or more) black large ugly cube is aesthetically pleasing to have in their living / listening room?

Looks like we're on the same team. Howdy pardner!

If it is possible to solve in terms of location, try to hide the sub, behind furniture, under furniture, cover them.

Yup. Done it. In my listening/home theater room, from my sofa when listening to music I'm staring at the projector screen wall. That wall is covered in black velvet beyond the screen. To pitch black around the screen. I also brought the black velvet out a couple along the floor below the screen, a sort of "stage" area where the L/C/R speakers sit. I had black velvet covers made for all those speakers and their stands. The result being that visually they "disappear" against the black velvet area. Literally, even though they are large speakers, many people don't even notice them (unless it's bright in the room). It made a tremendous difference given my situation where I was also sticking in 2 channel speakers in a relatively small room. It would have looked much more overburdened with speakers had I not "hid" the home theater speakers.

When I had the subs, I made them black velvet covers as well so they were much less visible.

My last ditch effort in keeping the subs was trying a single sub behind my sofa. It worked surprisingly well. Just not well enough for me.

Regarding integrating sub with other speakers. I read on another forum about a person who experienced basically what you write. In the end, he hired a professional acoustician. Best money he ever spent on Hifi, was his comment.

My room was desgined with the input of a professional acoustician (and incorporates all sorts of stealthy acoustic treatment). It's a wonderful sounding room and speakers sound great in there.

 

[HighImpactAV]

What needs to be correct for a subwoofer to integrate properly with the main speaker? Level, phase, time, and polarity. Here is a picture from the SMAART 8 manual showing the differences of phase, time, and polarity. When integrating a subwoofer, you want the speaker and subwoofer to be in-time, in-phase, and in polarity.

Here are the same things shown using a wavelet. Under the Relationship heading are Time (Mis-aligned or Aligned), Phase (In-Phase or Out-of-Phase), and Polarity (In-Polarity or Reverse-Polarity). Any deviation is audible during playback and is one way to check out a system during calibration.

What happens to the signal in typical music listening with stereo content? The content is decorrelated between the left and right speaker until it gets down 80-60 Hz and then the signal is correlated. In other words, the bass is mono, but sometimes not until below 60 Hz. How can one measure this? There are several tools available. RME has a goniometer as part of its analysis tools. MOTU's Audio Tools has an X-Y plot and Phase Analysis. Both audio devices provide a Correlation Meter. There are also plugins available for JRiver Media Center and most DAW's that let one analyze the music for correlated vs decorrelated signals.

It is because the bass is mono that you can use subwoofers in a stereo configuration. You don't have to worry about the bass only being in one speaker (or subwoofer). The transition from correlated signals to decorrelated is perfectly smooth. The benefit is that you aren't mixing decorrelated signals in the subwoofer. You are also maintaining the signal's time, phase, and polarity alignment.

There are multiple types of wave patterns generated by a subwoofers. There are cylindrical, beamforming, cartioid, hypercartioid, and a plane wave patterns. A single subwoofer or multiple subwoofers spread throughout the room as typically setup in a home radiate bass in a cylindrical pattern. In a rectangular room, or even a room that starts rectangular, the bass from two speakers or two stereo subwoofers (with essentially mono output) against the front wall creates a plane wave. Using a single subwoofer in a room creates a different wave pattern than using two full range speakers. The benefit of a plane wave is that both width and height modes are attenuated. This means that full range mains or stereo subwoofers have an acoustical benefit for many listening rooms.

My past 7 sets of main speakers have been floor standers. However, three of them were not what I would consider full range. The full range speakers have been flat down to below 20 Hz with output at 20 Hz higher than most subwoofers. For example, my JTR Speakers Noesis 215RT's had 20 dB more output at 20 Hz than a JL Audio E112 subwoofer or 11 dB more output at 20 Hz than a Paradigm Signature Sub 2. This is just with a single speaker. I had three! I've also had at least dual subwoofers while owning the full range mains and have had from eight (8) 15" woofers to eight (8) 18" woofers for my subwoofers. I've lacked nothing in the ability to play down to 20 Hz with full range mains and I've also not lacked anything with the ability to add in subwoofers.

Floor standing doesn't preclude the necessity for subwoofers. I've calibrated many rooms with floor standing speakers that need the subwoofers to have sufficient distortion free output not only in the bass, but also in the midbass. However, adding subwoofers doesn't automatically somehow make full range floor standing speakers sound better. I always prefer full range speakers vs full range speakers with subwoofers if the subwoofers aren't in a stereo configuration.

When the left or right signal is no longer time and phase aligned with the subwoofer then the bass envelope is widened and the bass sounds muddy. Anytime you place subwoofers throughout the room you widen the bass envelope. It is impossible for the left speaker to be time and phase aligned with the signal from a subwoofer one foot away and another subwoofer 10 ft away. It can't be done. The range in which the speaker and subwoofer both contribute to the sound is usually from 60 to 120 Hz with most receivers (1/2 octave above and below the crossover). Sometimes it is from 40 to 160 Hz (1 octave above and below the crossover).

Full range floor standing speakers have the benefit of generating a plane wave in many listening rooms and they keep the entire signal both time and phase aligned. Can this be done with subwoofers? Absolutely. It can cost more for the dual subwoofer/speaker/dsp combination than it does for a proper full range floor standing speaker. It is extremely difficult to get the subwoofer to align in time and phase throughout the window in which both are contributing to the sound. A frequency response graphs will look the same in which the subwoofer is delayed by either one cycle or two cycles in relation to the main speakers, but will only sound right when the subwoofer time aligned.

 

[Chromatischism]

The impulse responses of sealed designed typically show a faster decay, at least for the subwoofer comparisons I've seen on data-bass.com.

Is that still true above the tuning frequency? I read above that it acts like a sealed box.

 

[Chromatischism]

View attachment 160161

Funny until you think it through and realize it's not the right analogy.

 

[HighImpactAV]

Funny until you think it through and realize it's not the right analogy.

A violin and a double bass together can play the entire part written for a cello - the same frequency bandwidth. A bookshelf speaker and a subwoofer can play the same frequency bandwidth as a full range floor standing speaker. Of course a violin/double bass will sound different than a cello hence the "lying" part.

 

[DanielT]

Those numbers need to be backed up by some actual references to measurements. Distortion would also only fall within the limited frequency range where the port is increasing the efficiency. Lower cut-off frequency is also not necessarily true depending on the construction, since below the port frequency the roll-off of a ported construction will be much steeper than a sealed one. So you often see sealed designs outperform ported designs in SPL at the very bottom end.

Most speakers today are also so small/compact that it's hard to create a ported solution without port noise problems. Both for speakers and subwoofers, it's best suited for fairly large cabinets. When tuned low (20-25hz) in a large cabinet, ported designs will be as accurate as a sealed design, since they act as a sealed cabinet for most of the frequency range. But that also means you only get the benefit of the port in the very bottom end.

So I would say that "a well implemented bass reflex solution is the best choice in almost all contexts" is a pretty imprecise statement. "Well implemented" is also a not so small qualifier, since most commercial designs are not.

So in practice I would say the opposite holds through, most sealed designs are tighter and more precise than their ported cousins.

You come from neighboring Norway and make speakers Do you not know a consultant I-or? He who worked on developing speaker elements for a Danish manufacturer. Know people at Genelec. I-or:
A slit port then. However, Genelec has not really done the right thing in terms of flow mechanics

...... it is a completely normal bass reflex solution with a slightly differently designed port. My Finnish friends at Genelec are not stupid

I-or, Svante Granqvist, Ingvar Öhman? Those who usually discuss on the said forum. You know that I-or can throw out something like that sweeping, just to start a discussion. If you ask him about science about what he is talking about, he shows science that supports his thesis. I've never seen him fail.

Here, they discuss design of ports I-or / Isidor and Svante (the creator of Audio Pro's ace-bass solution, Svante also the created the speaker calculation program Basta).

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Fråga angående basreflexrör.

KTH | Svante Granqvist

Svante Granqvist, Works for: DIVISION OF BASIC SCIENCE EDUCATION, E-mail: [email protected], Telephone: +46 8 790 94 70, Address: HÄLSOVÄGEN 11 C, HUDDINGE

www.kth.se

Tutorial and guidelines on measurement of sound pressure level in voice and speech

kth.diva-portal.org

You can always register at Faktiskt. I-or is usually there so you can ask him.

Cool speakers by the way.

active speakers and subwoofers High-end premium Sigberg Audio Norway

Sigberg Audio is made in Norway. Our premium loudspeakers and subwoofers provide excellent sound quality, effortless dynamics and realistic sound pressure.

www.sigbergaudio.no

 

[DanielT]

Well, you used the term first, so what did you mean? In the broad sense I think most use the term to mean not overly boomy or full sounding, which most of the time is associated with room response issues but as per my link I don't think exclusively so.

I certainly did. Old habit. Tricky thing about describing sound. Easy that it becomes wine tasting expression.

 

[Honken]

Here, they discuss design of ports I-or / Isidor and Svante (the creator of Audio Pro's ace-bass solution, Svante also the created the speaker calculation program Basta).

Perhaps it would be more fruitful to ask Ingvar & Svante to join this forum and discussion instead?

 

[DanielT]

Perhaps it would be more fruitful to ask Ingvar & Svante to join this forum and discussion instead?

It was a little stupidly done. Diffrent forums. Gets weird to refer like that. Done is done. I will sharpen up and not do it again.

 

[MarkS]

A well-constructed ported speaker beats a sealed one every day of the week. Tighter bass, less distortion, more "nice hifi". There are only benefits. As I see it. Note: A well constructed.

Not if you're integrating with a subwoofer! A ported speaker has 180 phase rotation from the driver to the port, it's impossible to match that to subwoofer phase without DSP.

And ports in bookshelf speakers always add distortion at higher frequencies from port resonances (see any Amir review of a ported bookshelf speaker) at levels FAR above the SINAD that people here fret about in amps and DACs.

 

[DanielT]

And ports in bookshelf speakers always add distortion at higher frequencies from port resonances (see any Amir review of a ported bookshelf speaker) at levels FAR above the SINAD that people here fret about in amps and DACs.

Okay. Well, it's so, then it's so.

Took one at random. I'm curious where do you see that in this measurement:

Revel M106 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel M106 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased and drop shipped to me. It is not a new sample but came to me with full packaging and protective wrapper. The M106 costs US $1,000 each or $2,000 for a pair. It is only sold through dealer...

audiosciencereview.com

Do you know of any closed speakers that Amir has tested. It would be fun to compare.

All speaker designs add distortion in its own way. The question is among these different ones which one to choose for best performance.

Of all the premium speakers Amir tested. How many are sealed? Or take all Amir speakers test, measurements.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Is that still true above the tuning frequency? I read above that it acts like a sealed box.

I referred to the impulse response which by definition includes all frequencies. I suspect you were thinking about looking at decay on a waterfall plot here? There are waterfall plots on data-bass.com too if you want to have a look. As one comparison from there, here's an SVS SB13-Ultra (sealed) followed by different modes of the SVS PB13-Ultra (ported):

And finally here's what the PB13-Ultra looks like when run in sealed mode (all ports stuffed):

I'll be interested in what the meaurement experts here think but from a quick look I suspect this one example does support the notion that the significant difference is in region where the is dominant contribution from the port.


Sources: https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5bd0c4ea20120c00040a9bed?_k=yf4lqu
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5b11c1e3a201f10004e39d67?_k=2fg9uy

 

[Ultrasonic]

Do you know of any closed speakers that Amir has tested. It would be fun to compare.

Here's one I can think of quickly:

Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Neumann KH 310A active monitor (speaker). It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. I see it discounted to US $2,200 (each) as of this writing. This is one dense and heavy 3-way speaker: I was relieved to find "rack mount" ears...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chromatischism]

A violin and a double bass together can play the entire part written for a cello - the same frequency bandwidth. A bookshelf speaker and a subwoofer can play the same frequency bandwidth as a full range floor standing speaker. Of course a violin/double bass will sound different than a cello hence the "lying" part.

View attachment 160191

Except an analogous speaker would be doing so with a separate bass driver which is the stand-in for a subwoofer.

 

[Ultrasonic]

The full range speakers have been flat down to below 20 Hz with output at 20 Hz higher than most subwoofers. For example, my JTR Speakers Noesis 215RT's had 20 dB more output at 20 Hz than a JL Audio E112 subwoofer or 11 dB more output at 20 Hz than a Paradigm Signature Sub 2.

Whilst I'm sure that's true, a floorstanding speaker with two 15" bass drivers is not exactly typical though . I'd be interested to see what their measured performance was like over the full frequency range actually.