• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

A small portable DAC/amp or something else?

AliveNoMore

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
12
Likes
2
Hello, audio people!

First and foremost, I apologize if the forum is wrong but it seemed like the most appropriate one.

I'm kind of in a pickle.

I'm currently using my smartphone (Motorola Moto G 3rd Gen) as an audio player. The problem is that its crosstalk measurement on GSMArena aren't inspiring confidence (-36.1), and I don't know the phone's output impedance. So I was considering changing things a bit. The problem is none of the options seem particularly viable.
I can get a dedicated DAP but not all support ReplayGain (which is a must), and even if they do, using a DAP means carrying one more device with me, and I'm missing calls, as I don't always hear my phone ringing.
I can get a portable DAC/Amp, but some of them are rather bulky, and others are not battery-powered, so they would drain my phone's battery quickly.
I actually purchased a FiiO BTR1 (a bluetooth DAC/Amp) but I'm going to return it, as it turns out my phone doesn't support AptX (even though Bluetoothcheck.com and GSMArena say it does).
Another option is a new phone, but very few of them have good audio and camera, and are cheap. Besides, even if they measure well, the output impedance is still unknown. For example: the Xiaomi Redmi S2 measures very well and is affordable, but I'm not sold on Xiaomi's interface, and the camera lacks a dual-tone flash. The Motorola Moto G6 Plus looks fantastic: measurements are fantastic, excellent camera, it has everything, but it's a bit expensive for my budget and needs. And in either case (S2 or G6 Plus) I still don't know the output impedance.
Someone recommended the Google's USB-C Digital to 3.5 mm headphone adapter but that is Type-C.

Anyone has any ideas about an optimal solution?

Do OTG portable DAC/amps like the FiiO K1 or the SMSL IDOL+/X4/IDEA consume a lot of battery?
Or maybe I should get something like the FiiO A1 which is just an amp and is battery powered.
Yet a third option would be to go back to my Rockboxed Sansa Clip Zip. The only issue is I'm going to miss calls again.
In any of the three cases above I would still need to have another device with me, but at least they would small and light.

You guys have any opinions or suggestions?
 
Last edited:

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
Hello, audio people!

First and foremost, I apologize if the forum is wrong but it seemed like the most appropriate one.

I'm kind of in a pickle.

I'm currently using my smartphone (Motorola Moto G 3rd Gen) as an audio player. The problem is that its crosstalk measurement on GSMArena aren't inspiring confidence (-36.1), and I don't know the phone's output impedance. So I was considering changing things a bit. The problem is none of the options seem particularly viable.
I can get a dedicated DAP but not all support ReplayGain (which is a must), and even if they do, using a DAP means carrying one more device with me, and I'm missing calls, as I don't always hear my phone ringing.
I can get a portable DAC/Amp, but some of them are rather bulky, and others are not battery-powered, so they would drain my phone's battery quickly.
I actually purchased a FiiO BTR1 (a bluetooth DAC/Amp) but I'm going to return it, as it turns out my phone doesn't support AptX (even though Bluetoothcheck.com and GSMArena say it does).
Another option is a new phone, but very few of them have good audio and camera, and are cheap. Besides, even if they measure well, the output impedance is still unknown. For example: the Xiaomi Redmi S2 measures very well and is affordable, but I'm not sold on Xiaomi's interface, and the camera lacks a dual-tone flash. The Motorola Moto G6 Plus looks fantastic: measurements are fantastic, excellent camera, it has everything, but it's a bit expensive for my budget and needs. And in either case (S2 or G6 Plus) I still don't know the output impedance.
Someone recommended the Google's USB-C Digital to 3.5 mm headphone adapter but that is Type-C.

Anyone has any ideas about an optimal solution?

Do OTG portable DAC/amps like the FiiO K1 or the SMSL IDOL+/X4/IDEA consume a lot of battery?
Or maybe I should get something like the FiiO A1 which is just an amp and is battery powered.
Yet a third option would be to go back to my Rockboxed Sansa Clip Zip. The only issue is I'm going to miss calls again.
In any of the three cases above I would still need to have another device with me, but at least they would small and light.

You guys have any opinions or suggestions?
I can suggest what I did with a few warnings: I bought a used LG V20 that are from 2016. It looks like they cost somewhere from about 125 to 225 on ebay according to condition of the phone. Now for the downsides: Unless the headphones are at least 50 ohms the higher quality portions of the dac will not be used. It does make a difference. Also it did not matter if I hooked in the topping to use just as an amp, the phone still detected it at less than 50 ohm and the quad dac would not be initialized. There is a way around the 50 ohm limitation, the instructions are online, but I did not actually attempt it.
So I returned the topping d4 and decided to use just the phone with a 80 ohm DT-770's. It actually sounds really good to me anyway just by itself without hauling around a separate amp/dac. Also they dont have t-mobiles band 12 if that's important to you and there very susceptible to ghosting. I can clean that up with a screen burn in app, but doesn't take long to were I can see it again on a grey screen. Cant see it in normal operation and I have set mine to a black background.
Tmobile says there going to offer Oreo, but who knows?
The advantages over most phones are: Removable battery. Headphone jack. Nice dac. Nice camera. Price. Pretty much all the bells and whistles from 2016. I use USB audio player pro and it works fine with tidal. Lets me bypass android audio and use bit perfect mode and it does sound better that way. One downside to this program, I cant seem to get USB audio player pro to read the downloaded tidal files I have on my phone, can only get it to stream off cell or wifi. Maybe because the files are encrypted. I dont know.
It really bugs me though the 50 ohm thing. Most headphones I have are below 50 ohms. The big downside for sure.
 
Last edited:
OP
A

AliveNoMore

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
12
Likes
2
Unfortunately no. I need the devices I carry to be as few, as small, and as light as possible.

...snipped...
Thank you for the reply, but if I'm going to buy a phone, it will be a brand new one.
Also, I'm going to be using low-impedance (16-32 Ohm) head/earphones.

I'm going to ask for an exchange of the BTR1 with the K1. See if it works (it should, according to information I find around the web, and in the debugging options of my phone there is one to disable redirection sounds to the USB port), and how much battery it will drain.

Someone recommended things like the iFi IEMatch or the UE Buffer Jack.
I am generally skeptical of boutique Chinese DAP/DAC/amp manufacturers, and I am extremely skeptical of optimizers of any kind (audio, computer, etc.), and "extremely skeptical" is an euphemism for "I consider 99,9% of them to be effing snake oil".
The UE Buffer Jack is not available in Europe, and I'm not spending $70 for a delivery of a $15 product.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
Unfortunately no. I need the devices I carry to be as few, as small, and as light as possible.


Thank you for the reply, but if I'm going to buy a phone, it will be a brand new one.
Also, I'm going to be using low-impedance (16-32 Ohm) head/earphones.

I'm going to ask for an exchange of the BTR1 with the K1. See if it works (it should, according to information I find around the web, and in the debugging options of my phone there is one to disable redirection sounds to the USB port), and how much battery it will drain.

Someone recommended things like the iFi IEMatch or the UE Buffer Jack.
I am generally skeptical of boutique Chinese DAP/DAC/amp manufacturers, and I am extremely skeptical of optimizers of any kind (audio, computer, etc.), and "extremely skeptical" is an euphemism for "I consider 99,9% of them to be effing snake oil".
The UE Buffer Jack is not available in Europe, and I'm not spending $70 for a delivery of a $15 product.
The LG v40 is going to be released shortly. Dont know if its going to have the same limitations as the previous LG's but it may be worth looking in to if they fixed the 50 ohm limitation. They do sound better than any other phone I have had.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
For the V20/ V30/G6 , you can induce it into its "external device" mode simply by plugging in a jack adaptor / extender before you plug in your earphones/ headphones.

I do that all the time on my G6.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
I was wondering about that. Please correct me if I am wrong. What I understand is that I would need to start the music first then plug in the headphones to the extension cord. What happens if I pause the music and then restart it? Would I need to unplug the headphones, restart the music, and replug in the headphones every time even if I am not turning the music player off? Generally during a listening session I pause the music a lot because of a phone call, someone wants to talk to me in person, get a glass of water, etc.
 
Last edited:
OP
A

AliveNoMore

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
12
Likes
2
It would seem I need to remind you that the budget is low. I've already seen countless LG <insert model here> recommendations. I've seen they measure well on GSMArena, but I haven't looked for any output impedance measurements elsewhere, because those phones are way out of my budget.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
I was wondering about that. Please correct me if I am wrong. What I understand is that I would need to start the music first then plug in the headphones to the extension cord. What happens if I pause the music and then restart it? Would I need to unplug the headphones, restart the music, and replug in the headphones every time even if I am not turning the music player off? Generally during a listening session I pause the music a lot because of a phone call, someone wants to talk to me in person, get a glass of water, etc.

Nope, you don't need to start the music at all.

You just need on of these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3pc...870.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4d0mLLdG

or these:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sli...7ccc-4ee7-8c7a-34d13f1556bb&priceBeautifyAB=0


i) Plug it into the phone jack without the earphone/headphone.
ii) You'll see the "hi-fi" icon at the top of the screen.
iii) Plug in your earphone onto these.
iv) Start your music player.
v) You're good to go.

You'll see the "external device"mode when you access the volume controls via the "hi-fi" icon at the top of the screen.

The mode persists as long as you don't unplug and replug the jack without redoing the sequence. ITs as simple as that.
For low sensitivity, low impedance headphones such as Hifiman planars, you will get about 30~35% more volume from this mode.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
Well that is why I recommended used at first. There may not be a recommendation possible in the price range you require. I hope you find an answer.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
Nope, you don't need to start the music at all.

You just need on of these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3pc...870.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4d0mLLdG

or these:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sli...7ccc-4ee7-8c7a-34d13f1556bb&priceBeautifyAB=0


i) Plug it into the phone jack without the earphone/headphone.
ii) You'll see the "hi-fi" icon at the top of the screen.
iii) Plug in your earphone onto these.
iv) Start your music player.
v) You're good to go.

You'll see the "external device"mode when you access the volume controls via the "hi-fi" icon at the top of the screen.

The mode persists as long as you don't unplug and replug the jack without redoing the sequence. ITs as simple as that.
For low sensitivity, low impedance headphones such as Hifiman planars, you will get about 30~35% more volume from this mode.
OK thank you! That was why I didn't attempt it. I will get a cord pronto.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
OK thank you! That was why I didn't attempt it. I will get a cord pronto.

If the headphone/earphone you're using has removable cables, you can do the same thing for now by unplugging the driver ends and plug in the cable without the drivers first. Then plug in the drivers. It will get you the same effect.

But its not a long term solution, rather allows you to do a quick tryout.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
If the headphone/earphone you're using has removable cables, you can do the same thing for now by unplugging the driver ends and plug in the cable without the drivers first. Then plug in the drivers. It will get you the same effect.

But its not a long term solution, rather allows you to do a quick tryout.
This means that I could do the same with the topping D4. Trying to use just the amp section of the topping(way more battery life in amp mode only) the V20 would not detect 50 ohms. So plug in the extension cord, start the quad dac on the phone, then plug in the topping D4 then headphones. I should of kept the topping and not returned it.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
I don't get what you're trying to do there.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
Well I bought a new Topping D4 amp/dac at the same time as the V20. When using the D4 as both an amp and a dac the battery life is greatly reduced in the D4. Since the dac in the LG's are pretty good, I was trying to use the D4 as an amp only which requires the D4 to be plugged into the headphone jack and not the USB type C required by the dac.
 

Rod

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
744
Likes
332
Well I bought a new Topping D4 amp/dac at the same time as the V20. When using the D4 as both an amp and a dac the battery life is greatly reduced in the D4. Since the dac in the LG's are pretty good, I was trying to use the D4 as an amp only which requires the D4 to be plugged into the headphone jack and not the USB type C required by the dac.
I don't get what you're trying to do there.
I apologize, its the Topping NX4 and not D4. Sorry.
 

Bhargu

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
83
Likes
14
It would seem I need to remind you that the budget is low. I've already seen countless LG <insert model here> recommendations. I've seen they measure well on GSMArena, but I haven't looked for any output impedance measurements elsewhere, because those phones are way out of my budget.

Get an SMSL IDEA/Sabaj DA2. I don't think you are going to find anything better in the price or weight range you are looking at. Or you could spend double and go for a Dragonfly Red which consumes a third of the power (compared to SMSL), if I remember correctly.
 
OP
A

AliveNoMore

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
12
Likes
2
The SMSL IDEA is still beyond my budget. The Sabaj DA2 is more acceptable in terms of price, but is it certain that it is actually identical to the IDEA (except for the shell of course)?

What about the SMSL X4 or IDOL+? I'm under no illusion that they would measure as well as the IDEA, however if they measure decently, they would be enough. It's going to be used on the go and not with any high quality earphones. I'm not looking for top notch Hi-Fi equipment here, just something that would have low output impedance and good enough measurements. I also couldn't care less about anything above Redbook CD audio (16bit/44.1kHz).

Since the X4 and IDOL+ are both unknowns, and the IDEA is a bit expensive, I'm also considering the FiiO K1, as it is quite affordable and is known to be a decent little DAC/amp, not as good as the IDEA, sure, but good enough for my needs.

And yes, lower battery consumption is a plus but not if it increases the price significantly.
 

Bhargu

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
83
Likes
14
The SMSL IDEA is still beyond my budget. The Sabaj DA2 is more acceptable in terms of price, but is it certain that it is actually identical to the IDEA (except for the shell of course)?

What about the SMSL X4 or IDOL+? I'm under no illusion that they would measure as well as the IDEA, however if they measure decently, they would be enough. It's going to be used on the go and not with any high quality earphones. I'm not looking for top notch Hi-Fi equipment here, just something that would have low output impedance and good enough measurements. I also couldn't care less about anything above Redbook CD audio (16bit/44.1kHz).

Since the X4 and IDOL+ are both unknowns, and the IDEA is a bit expensive, I'm also considering the FiiO K1, as it is quite affordable and is known to be a decent little DAC/amp, not as good as the IDEA, sure, but good enough for my needs.

And yes, lower battery consumption is a plus but not if it increases the price significantly.

It's a 10 dollars difference, right? Does that make such a difference, especially when it means you are getting a device that you yourself seems to think is better? About the other two, I have not heard much. From a head-fi review it seems IDOL's power consumption is closer to Dragonfly.
 
OP
A

AliveNoMore

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
12
Likes
2
Not sure to what you are referring with that "10 dollar difference".

I'm not in the US, I'm in Eastern Europe. The SMSL IDEA is 73 GBP (94 USD) on Amazon, whereas the Sabaj Da2 is 48 GBP (62 USD). That's nowhere close to a 10 USD difference.
For comparison, the SMSL IDOL+ is 33 GBP (42 USD), the SMSL X4 is sold on the German Amazon for 42 EUR (48 USD), and the FiiO K1 is 36 GBP (46 USD).
 
Top Bottom