Hello, I've read plenty of posts regarding A07 and Hypex Ncore (mostly 252mp, because of popularity and power). I couldn't find answer for one question: for 92db 4 ohm speakers, when power of aiyima is more than enough for daily use, would there be any audible differences between those amps? I mean for average man, not with a hearing of bat. Sinad of ncore is higher, but does it make difference in this example, especially when no need of bigger power? Thanks
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Aiyima 07 vs Hypex Ncore
- Thread starter elak
- Start date
Short answer is likely no difference.
Long answer:
The current standard of rating loudspeaker sensitivity is with a 2.83 Vrms input. Thus, for 4 ohm speakers, it is 2 W. Therefore, the speaker sensitivity at 1 W is 89 dB. With my assumption of 10 ft listening distance, stereo setup, speakers within 4 ft of front wall, at 5 W, the SPL at the listening position is 92.3 dB (link to speaker SPL calculator).
Distortions is not going to be an audible problem with any of these amps as the worst offender Aiyima A07 has a THD of ~0.004% (about -88 dB from looking at the distortion peaks in the FFT plot). So we'll look at noise, and the Aiyima A07 (ASR review) 5 W signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is 84 dB.
You can get better performance from the Fosi Audio V3 (ASR review) with 5 W SNR of 91 dB due to its outboard power supply.
[Edit] Both the Aiyima A07 and Fosi Audio V3 use outboard power supplies. For some reason, Amir's test of the Aiyima A07 showed quite a bit of line AC frequency noise.
The Buckeye 6 ch NC252 (ASR review) 5 W SNR is 97 dB, which should be representative of the typical NC252MP implementations.
Thus, the noise levels from the amplifiers you will hear at the listening position for the A07, V3, and NC252 at 5 W are 8.3 dB SPL (= 92.3 - 84), 1.3 dB SPL (= 92.3 - 91), and -4.7 dB (= 92.3 - 97), respectively. These numbers are all far below the normal background noise level of domestic rooms of about 30 to 40 dB SPL, and therefore you will be unlikely to be able to differentiate between them.
Note that the above numbers are best case numbers that only count the noise contributions from the speaker amplifiers. The noise from the DAC (and other noise such as ground loops and interference picked up by cables) magnified by the speaker amps are not included, and proper gain staging (such as running the speaker amps with minimal gain and running the DAC to its highest practical output) is still important.
Long answer:
The current standard of rating loudspeaker sensitivity is with a 2.83 Vrms input. Thus, for 4 ohm speakers, it is 2 W. Therefore, the speaker sensitivity at 1 W is 89 dB. With my assumption of 10 ft listening distance, stereo setup, speakers within 4 ft of front wall, at 5 W, the SPL at the listening position is 92.3 dB (link to speaker SPL calculator).
Distortions is not going to be an audible problem with any of these amps as the worst offender Aiyima A07 has a THD of ~0.004% (about -88 dB from looking at the distortion peaks in the FFT plot). So we'll look at noise, and the Aiyima A07 (ASR review) 5 W signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is 84 dB.
You can get better performance from the Fosi Audio V3 (ASR review) with 5 W SNR of 91 dB
[Edit] Both the Aiyima A07 and Fosi Audio V3 use outboard power supplies. For some reason, Amir's test of the Aiyima A07 showed quite a bit of line AC frequency noise.
The Buckeye 6 ch NC252 (ASR review) 5 W SNR is 97 dB, which should be representative of the typical NC252MP implementations.
Thus, the noise levels from the amplifiers you will hear at the listening position for the A07, V3, and NC252 at 5 W are 8.3 dB SPL (= 92.3 - 84), 1.3 dB SPL (= 92.3 - 91), and -4.7 dB (= 92.3 - 97), respectively. These numbers are all far below the normal background noise level of domestic rooms of about 30 to 40 dB SPL, and therefore you will be unlikely to be able to differentiate between them.
Note that the above numbers are best case numbers that only count the noise contributions from the speaker amplifiers. The noise from the DAC (and other noise such as ground loops and interference picked up by cables) magnified by the speaker amps are not included, and proper gain staging (such as running the speaker amps with minimal gain and running the DAC to its highest practical output) is still important.
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Onboard power supply?
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Fosi Audio V3 Amplifier Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio V3 stereo amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $89.99 with stock 32 volt supply. Price goes up to $109.99 with the 48 volt supply. There is a $10 discount coupon right now. Despite its budget price, the V3...
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There is much more than SINAD that can make the sound different between amplifiers . A SINAD of 80 is probably transparent in all normal situations. Im talking about other things like frequency response, damping factor and the ability to deliver current in a fast way and above all : Handling of a complex load.
Handling a complex load by power amplifiers
Handling a complex load by power amplifiers A power amplifier’s job is to supply a voltage to a loudspeaker and then to deliver whatever current the loudspeaker needs to move its voice coil, producing airwaves with a sound pressure level up to what is specified for the speaker and/or...
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Waxx
Major Contributor
The limiting factor is the speaker, not the amp and most speakers are below 70dB SINAD. That Aiyima A7 is quiet good for it's price, but in my experience the SINAD is not what makes the difference once you're at a certain level, but the psu reserve of the NC252MP and other NCore implementations makes the amp better. The Aiyima is limited on that standard psu and so goes earlier in distortion on higher power. And the build quality of the Ncore modules and it's builds is also way higher than the fragile build A7.
Does it has an effect on the sound? Yes, it makes the headroom of your amp bigger so you never have distorted transients. The A7 may give about 55w at 4R peak power, but the NC252MP in stereo modus gives +/- 270w at 4R peak power (and mostly at lower distortion). Even if your speakers are lower rated, that makes a big difference in sound as the amp will not be stressed at all to drive them. And it won't hurt the drivers, it's standard practice in pro audio to have more powerfull amps than your speakers are rated for, to avoid that the amp goes in distortion (what is fatal for your speakers at a certain point) or sags (psu can't deliver the current the music need).
Does it has an effect on the sound? Yes, it makes the headroom of your amp bigger so you never have distorted transients. The A7 may give about 55w at 4R peak power, but the NC252MP in stereo modus gives +/- 270w at 4R peak power (and mostly at lower distortion). Even if your speakers are lower rated, that makes a big difference in sound as the amp will not be stressed at all to drive them. And it won't hurt the drivers, it's standard practice in pro audio to have more powerfull amps than your speakers are rated for, to avoid that the amp goes in distortion (what is fatal for your speakers at a certain point) or sags (psu can't deliver the current the music need).
Naja
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Since I have both I'll leave my two cents, I have compared them back to back and level matched down to 0.5dB. The Ncore flat out whips the Ayima, no contest.
As far as differences that I could discern between the two, the Ayima sounds constrained, like all the frequencies come from the same spot in space, while the Ncore is effortless, everything is differentiated and has decay, this is most apparent in the bass where I can't locate the bass as coming from the speakers, but coming from everywhere with the Ncore. With the Ayima I could clearly tell the point of bass emanation were the speakers (with absolutely no change change in my setup, I simply swapped the amplifiers and nothing more). There's more detail on the Ncore and tonality is perfect, with one of the most realistic reproduction of instruments and voices I have ever heard, they truly sound lifelike, I didn't experience that with the Ayima, it did not sound bad, but it didn't sound lifelike either, imaging is also better on the Ncore.
Now to the negatives, all the increase in detail and transparency of the Ncore comes with a caveat, it did make the highs a bit too pronounced in my room and with my speakers, fortunately I have a DSP and applied the Harman curve which made everything good again, there's also the fact that if it's bad mastering on the recording or any kind of mistake in mastering you immediately hear it.
Most of the differences between these two amps are most likely due to the load invariability that the Ncore has. The Ayima is a great amplifier for 75$ but it's not a proper amplifier, then again that's about what you can expect for that sum of money.
To summarize, the Ayima is a great and cheap way to amplify a signal, but if you want to enjoy and experience the music I would wholeheartedly recommend the Ncore over it.
As far as differences that I could discern between the two, the Ayima sounds constrained, like all the frequencies come from the same spot in space, while the Ncore is effortless, everything is differentiated and has decay, this is most apparent in the bass where I can't locate the bass as coming from the speakers, but coming from everywhere with the Ncore. With the Ayima I could clearly tell the point of bass emanation were the speakers (with absolutely no change change in my setup, I simply swapped the amplifiers and nothing more). There's more detail on the Ncore and tonality is perfect, with one of the most realistic reproduction of instruments and voices I have ever heard, they truly sound lifelike, I didn't experience that with the Ayima, it did not sound bad, but it didn't sound lifelike either, imaging is also better on the Ncore.
Now to the negatives, all the increase in detail and transparency of the Ncore comes with a caveat, it did make the highs a bit too pronounced in my room and with my speakers, fortunately I have a DSP and applied the Harman curve which made everything good again, there's also the fact that if it's bad mastering on the recording or any kind of mistake in mastering you immediately hear it.
Most of the differences between these two amps are most likely due to the load invariability that the Ncore has. The Ayima is a great amplifier for 75$ but it's not a proper amplifier, then again that's about what you can expect for that sum of money.
To summarize, the Ayima is a great and cheap way to amplify a signal, but if you want to enjoy and experience the music I would wholeheartedly recommend the Ncore over it.
Ok, you have expressed the traditional ” hifi” differences in the sound, and the Ncore sounded better.
If you instead listen to the melodies the musicians are playing from the recording - which of the amplifiers plays the most clear melody in the bass ? This is what counts in long therm, ( and no - there is no flawor of the taste judging whats better or worse in this area. )
Try to listen to the melodies the musicians are playing - one of the amplifier should be better playing bass pitch than the other.* ( i.e more articulated in the bass area )
Im not saying that the Ncore is worse in playing a clear bass pitch, but I know from experience that the price or technology dont count much at all. My opinion is also that a really good amplifier dont need any EQ.
*Im genuinely interested in the Ncores after my Aiyima a04 have wiped the floor of many class A/B amplifiers in my place. There should be better amps, or…? Its hard to know and listen because they dont sell in ”normal” hifi stores.
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Naja
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Price and technology do count, it's the difference between a load invariant amplifier and one that is not, also better technology costs more to develop and produce. Take for example our here NC252MP and compare it to the topping PA7 which uses the TPA3255 chip or something similar I believe, the Topping engineers developed a new technology to make the TPA chip more load invariant (closer to the NC252MP) and it's price around 550$ is similar to the Ncore, compare that to the run of the mill Ayima at 75$, it's a considerable increase for the technology.Ok, you have expressed the traditional ” hifi” differences in the sound, and the Ncore sounded better.
If you instead listen to the melodies the musicians are playing from the recording - which of the amplifiers plays the most clear melody in the bass ? This is what counts in long therm, ( and no - there is no flawor of the taste judging whats better or worse in this area. )
Try to listen to the melodies the musicians are playing - one of the amplifier should be better playing bass pitch than the other.* ( i.e more articulated in the bass area )
Im not saying that the Ncore is worse in playing a clear bass pitch, but I know from experience that the price or technology dont count much at all. My opinion is also that a really good amplifier dont need any EQ.
*Im genuinely interested in the Ncores after my Aiyima a04 have wiped the floor of many class A/B amplifiers in my place. There should be better amps, or…? Its hard to know and listen because they dont sell in ”normal” hifi stores.
The EQ is not for the amplifier but for the room, when you place any speaker in a room the sound is going to be heavily influenced by that room, that's why testing a speaker in the audio showroom might sound a certain way, then when you get it in your home it sounds different. All DSP tries to do is negate the room effects for a more neutral sound, and in doing so it lets the components (speaker, amplifier, dac) real character through.
Yes it's a bummer that they don't sell the Ncore in normal hifi stores, but you could always ask the OEM Ncore assemblers for a demo and if you don't like it you can send it back, I'm sure they would be open to it.
You write that a DSP can negate the effect of the listeningroom but it cant do that in a very good way . Sure, it can relieve a bad loudspeakersetup but only for frequencies below 300 Hz . Im slightly suspicious when you write that you use a dsp to lower the treble with the Ncore - does this mean that you cant enjoy music without doing this ? Is the amplifier to bright sounding ? Or is it just perfect, making other amplifiers sound darker ?
You write that you use a dsp because of the room but my experience tells this isnt always the case. The timbre of an amplifier can be slightly darker, neutral or to bright. This depends on frequency response, damping factor, current ability, distortion and linearity.
This thread is very positive regarding those Hypex modules and maybe they are very good, but a little criticism might be a good thing because no amplifier is perfect.
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Waxx
Major Contributor
You should read about room correction, and room modes and acoustics in general i think. A room is an other resonator that changes the sound trough reflexions. Even if your speakers are perfect, your amp clean and neutral, a bad acoustic can mess up the good sound. With dsp you can fix a lot (not all) with advanced (automated) eq like Dirac, based on measurements of your room, of if you know what to do manual (but it's harder than most think). A good dsp that can do that is the MiniDSP Flex with Dirac option. Others can do similar things.
Naja
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I think the NC252MP amplifier is pretty close to perfection if all you want is a wire with gain, I haven't heard the ones that best it yet, like Purifi 1ET400A, NcoreX, Nilai or Benchmark, but I hardly believe a human could discern the distortion difference between 0,002 and 0,0005, especially when your speakers will distort much more than that while playing any music. If you don't want a wire with gain then there are plenty of other options around, personally I would like to try some Vincent amplifiers as I've only heard great things about them, but they're a bit too expensive for my taste.
I listen to a lot of different music genres and the Ncore is fine for about 70% of my library, I can listen to it without using DSP for the room, however when I get into things like techno or electronica the hi-hats become annoying, keep in mind that I also have a high frequency sensibility. Correcting the room for that 30% of my library not only made it great to listen, but also improved the rest since there was less emphasis on the high frequencies and more on the midrange. I don't see the highs being accentuated on some songs as a factual negative of the amp, it's more of a characteristic coming from the fact that it's so clean and my speakers are definitely V shaped.
On the subject of DSP, it's true that things like REW or the likes are pretty much useless above 500Hz but as @Waxx mentioned there is better software around which can do a great job all the way to 20KHz, Dirac if you want it automated and DRC-FIR for doing it manually.
Yes no amplifier is perfect, and no perfect amplifier can exist for everyone since there are a lot of variables, things like the room, speakers, preferences of the listener, etc. The Ncore is just a great amplifier that seldom does anything wrong, even more so when taking into consideration the price, that's why people praise it.
Naja
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@Tangband one of the reason I love the audio hobby is the fact that you always learn something new and experiment with various things.
Having listened to the NC252MP some more I no longer find it bright at all, I guess it was just an adjustment phase to hearing a very clean amp for the first time, at the time of my first post I had it for less than a week. I ended up taking off all the DSP equalization on the HF, at first it made a good impression but overall I did not like it that much long term, now I'm only using 3 simple PEQ filters for the bass modes in my room.
I'm still curious to learn what DSP can do so I'll experiment with DRC-FIR in the future, maybe I'll make a thread for that at one point.
Having listened to the NC252MP some more I no longer find it bright at all, I guess it was just an adjustment phase to hearing a very clean amp for the first time, at the time of my first post I had it for less than a week. I ended up taking off all the DSP equalization on the HF, at first it made a good impression but overall I did not like it that much long term, now I'm only using 3 simple PEQ filters for the bass modes in my room.
I'm still curious to learn what DSP can do so I'll experiment with DRC-FIR in the future, maybe I'll make a thread for that at one point.
I have now bought the Audiophonics 250 nc and its a great sounding amplifier, better than my a07 and only a tiny bit better than my a04 with Opa 1612, the nc250 has more power.
Naja
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What speakers have you paired it with?
My single driver DIY chn110. So an easy drive.
For those of you with the expert knowledge, how do you think the Fosi V3 with a 48v 5A power supply would compare against the NC252 driving 8ohm 89dB sensitive speakers at reference level? or what if a more powerful supply was connected to the Aiyima A07?
Naja
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For reasons already discussed in this thread the NC252MP is going to be better in every aspect, that's not to say the Fosi V3 is bad in any way, it's more than good enough and quite exceptional for the price. Connecting a more powerful supply won't bring any positive benefits imo, the max rated 300W are at 1% THD which is going to be audible, there's also the issue of heat, the chip is likely to just shut down if you put too much power through it without adequate cooling.
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