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Are you a Subjectivist or an Objectivist?

How would you classify yourself?

  • Ultra Objectivist (ONLY care about measurements and what has been double-blind tested.)

    Votes: 21 4.9%
  • Hard Objectivist (Measurements are almost always the full story. Skeptical of most subjective claim)

    Votes: 123 28.9%
  • Objectivist (Measurements are very important but not everything.)

    Votes: 182 42.7%
  • Neutral/Equal

    Votes: 40 9.4%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 7 1.6%
  • Subjectivist (There's much measurements don't show. My hearing impressions are very important.)

    Votes: 25 5.9%
  • Hard Subjectivist (Might only use measurements on occasion but don't pay attention to them usually.)

    Votes: 5 1.2%
  • Ultra Subjectivist (Measurements are WORTHLESS, what I hear is all that matters.)

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Other (Please explain!)

    Votes: 20 4.7%

  • Total voters
    426

MattHooper

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Frankly I don’t know why you’d come around here if you weren’t a pretty solid obectivist. There’s not much in the way of flowery language when describing equipment among the faithful . Admittedly, I am a reformed subjectivist, probably the worst kind. I find myself cringing at the mere mention of terms like “soundstage”, “weight“ and “airy”.

Ha! I've seen that affliction before :)

We are all at our own point in our journey and in no way would I want to argue you "shouldn't" cringe at this point at subjective descriptions of sound. That's a psychological reaction one either carries on with or doesn't.

But I'd say that on a practical level it does seem very odd to me. It seems essentially a reaction against subjective description of experience....but only in the case of describing sound (in particular, audio systems). Do you cringe just as much when people describe a sunset as "beautiful?" or give any number of descriptions about music, or movies, or food, or any other experience from the senses? Where do you draw the line against using words to describe subjective experience (and all our experience is subjective)?

Again...I understand the psychological reaction, but in a more practical, rational view, does it make sense to you?

As I've mentioned many times before, my job working in pro sound for movies would be impossible if we were to reject the worth of subjective description and communication about "how things sound." So I often find this allergy around here pretty weird and sort of insular.
 

Geert

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There exists almost a century of peer reviewed studies which converge upon the same outcome. I wouldn't take that bet. :p
Looking at the noise floor measurements of the Naim NAIT 5si it has a pretty bad 60Hz tone in the left channel output, so who knows he might succeed ;)
 

Robin L

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I'm a surrealist.
To expand further.

Once I started my little business recording concerts of what is generally called "Classical Music" [mostly Baroque, FWIW], I became aware that reproducing "The Absolute Sound" is impossible on account of microphones being transducers, always stamping their sound on whatever was being recorded. Objectively or subjectively, we can't get there from here, least not until something other than microphones with their tympanic membranes and resonant bodies can be used to capture sound. Their degree of distortion/coloration is less than that of speakers but more than enough to dispel the illusion, at least for me.

All those years of attempting to get my stereo to sound like live, unamplified music were doomed to failure. I believed HP and MF until I couldn't. And it wasn't until I spent time with a number of highly regarded---Neumanns, vintage Neumanns, customized Neumanns, AKG, Microtech Gefell, Schoeps, others---just how much the sound coming through the microphones differed from the real thing. This started to happen to my perception of sound thirty years ago but didn't really kick in until some 20 years after that when I attempted a side hustle of transferring analog discs to digital formats. The longer I spent listening to what's wrong with old, worn analog discs, the better pure digital productions sounded. It didn't sound any more like live, unamplified acoustic music, but it did sound a whole lot more like a microphone feed, or a direct in from an electronic instrument, modes of music making that have become far more common in our time.

The point is not "the absolute sound" when there is no absolute sound to begin with. The issue for me, now, is "how many of these sonic balls this DJ are juggling are audible at the same time?" How many music lines can be audible at once is the new goal now that issue of absolute sonic verisimilitude is out the window. And the best demonstrations of this are the most surreal:

 

Weeb Labs

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Don’t trust a measurist. How could anyone trust you when you don’t even trust your own ears?
If your eyes need to be open, then you are not trusting your ears.
 

sergeauckland

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Don’t trust a measurist. How could anyone trust you when you don’t even trust your own ears?
And if I don't trust even my own ears, why should I trust anyone else's? That's why subjective comments are of value only to those making them, and magazine and other reviews useless. Only properly conducted measurements can be trusted.

S.
 

MattHooper

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Geert

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Not the same subject.

That thread is there to counter challenges to ASR reviews. And it spans all over the place in terms of subjects.

This thread concerns a specific question about each individual's approach to audio.
Exactly the same subject actually (talking about the "Don’t trust a measurist" discussion taking off). But if that master thread needs to be reserved exclusively for responses to review threads then you have a point.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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And if I don't trust even my own ears, why should I trust anyone else's? That's why subjective comments are of value only to those making them, and magazine and other reviews useless. Only properly conducted measurements can be trusted.

S.
Don’t listen to graphs. Sorry you don’t trust your own ears, think listening is the point of music and musical reproduction.
 

ZolaIII

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How could anyone who tries to simply write off subjective preferences regarding sound even call it self objectivist?
We need to understand better how we hear things and what's a state of our hearing (mesured) before doing duble blind duble subjectiv testing. Compare dependences of subjective observations to the actual audiogram hopefully so that we can establish base ground (validation to the extent amount of samples) for new hypothesis and future experiments (like for instance how does preference change under given objective conditions [age, exposure, couching...]) so that one day we even might be able to make a classification.

So far in the short time I was looking at availabile audiograms online (plenty of those) I really didn't find two which ware exactly the same.

Why don't we have a rigorous experimental scientific researchs nor validated methodology in audio? Simply because it never whose bounding (legally or otherwise) and no one ever did it as such (which would cost significant amount of time and money). In the arias where that's regulated by low the story is quite different for example drug approval (clinical and non clinical research, validation on milions of test subjects and squishing anomalies/nus effects on the 0.001% scale) for use and distribution.
 
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ahofer

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but what's the alternative if you want to refer to the type of audiophile that only trusts his ears and refutes scientific concensus?

Sonic Solipsist? Maybe squish it into one word: “Sonicsolipsist”.
 

ahofer

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Nice one. Take it a step further than subjectivism :)
We are all sonicsolipsists in the end. But the term reveals why reviews in the genre are completely useless.
 

ZolaIII

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@Geert is it answered? We can objectively say that the object A (peace of audio gear) during strict controled conditions conducted on object B measuring equipment conducted by subject C produced measurement results D which we can future classify in conjuction to other objects similar to object A. And that my friend exclude any other subject then that one who did measurements including its own subjectiv comments about the object.
The part that I wrote (and you didn't read) how I didn't find two exactly matching audiograms (objective measurements of state of hearing for individual subject) so far shows that we don't hear the same objectively.
Future more don't identify your self with many, you are just an individual subject.
Really show my such scientifically conclusive researches done on significant particle base?
 
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MaxBuck

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Measurements for components. Transducers (for me, speakers): measurements tell me which speakers are worth going out to audition, but ultimately purchase is based on how they sound, subjectively, to me (and also, importantly, to my wife).
 

ahofer

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I suspect I’m missing something here, but I got to thinking about why these categories matter. In the end, we are mostly talking about how we evaluate gear to be put in our own systems.

The perfect way to compare and select gear (nearly impossible):
Put it all in the same room, level match, get people to rapidly move different speakers into place and switch wires incredibly quickly, perform controlled double blind tests between all combinations with the same wide variety of program material and choose what you like best.

The way the industry structure forces you to audition gear (we all get pressured into some of this):
Go around to various showrooms, or buy one incredibly heavy and expensive piece of gear at a time. Listen mostly in different places, different moods, different music, looking at the gear and getting primed by salespeople about what you will hear and subtly dissed for your previous choices. Use the music they select. Get confused by worries of “synergy” and “burn-in” that you haven’t really experienced the equipment yet. Let inertia prevent you from completing an annoying (and maybe physically demanding) return process.

Optimizing with current possibilities:
Use measurements and an understanding of the available science to winnow down the gear you want to try. Develop an audition playlist that you are familiar with and use it over the salesman’s objectives. Include demanding and complex music with dynamic range, not just string trios and breathy vocalists with ukeleles. Do a few level-matched blind tests with electronics and be honest about when you can hear a difference. Be a stickler for good measurements with electronics, and buy plenty of power in amplification. Eliminate speakers with too high distortion, badly non-linear FR, wacky directivity, or over-demanding impedance/phase curves. Audition some of the rest with as much control as you can. Ignore the salespeople, or wave your wallet, say you are dead serious about purchasing, but only want to hear evidence-based claims. When it is all done, add room EQ and treatment (I suppose if you know what you are doing, you might want to do some treatment before auditioning in your own home).

I used to think there was room for subjective reviews, but in my return to the hobby I‘ve come to believe they are truly useless. However, once you have what you like, you can go look up the subjective reviews for your equipment. They will be pretty good, no doubt, make you feel better about your purchase, and add some positive confirmation bias to your listening.

I welcome ASR (thank you @amirm ) as it makes the latter method increasingly possible and less painful. I despair of many audiophile (sonicsolipsist) sites that heedlessly push us into the second model, and pretend that it’s only the subjectivity of the first model that counts, rather than the controls, therefore the second model is somehow what we wanted all along.
 
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