Audio Note speakers

[DanielT]

He speaks about feedback to correct the speaker response. This is a totally different subject and much harder to achieve, due to the reaction time of the speaker. Don't confuse it with feedback used within an amplifier.

Speaking of speaker-amplifier interaction with associated feedback. If it works as intended, MFB seems to be a smart solution:

Motional Feedback (MFB) is an active high fidelity loudspeaker system[1] which was developed by the Dutch Philips brand in the early 1970s. The loudspeakers have built-in amplifiers and feature a feedback sensor on the woofer. The sensor measures the output signal of the woofer and compares it to the amplifier input signal.[2] This results in a very low[clarification needed] distortion and furthermore a more extended low frequency response in a relatively small enclosure. Any distortion induced by the enclosure or the woofer itself is immediately corrected by the feedback loop.[3] To a degree, the sensor-feedback system also compensates for non-optimal room acoustics.

Motional Feedback - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Motional Feedback (MFB)?

It seems to be a smart system, right? Common in constructions nowadays? In the art of audio sound reproduction it is well-known that the dynamic loudspeaker is more nonlinear and generates more distortion than all the other system components combined. This is particularly true at low...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Waxx]

The Mustang is the only "car" that they still make and the Mustang is fairly reliable when you consider it is a sports car - most people are willing to put up with less than great reliability IF you get performance - that is why people are willing to buy German cars - I am NOT one of them. I don't believe you should TRADE reliability for performance - I feel like if you pay $35,000 for a Toyota Camry and it has outstanding reliability (which they do) then if you pay $70,000 (double the price) you should retain that reliability and then ADD performance on top of it. But I respect those who don't care because perhaps they have the money and patience to have their Mercedes in the shop paying $2,000 for brakes that last 1/4 as long as the $300 brake job on the Camry.

I don't know where you got that that german cars are not reliable. I'm driving german cars most of my life (Volksagen, Skoda (part of Volkswagen), Porche and BMW) and they never letted me totally down. A part may be broken or mallfunctioning, but i could still drive normal with it. And the few Mercedesses that i've driven were the same. German cars are reputed to be very reliable and efficient, that's why they are so popular here in Europe. Idem with Volvo (original swedish, now chinese owned), altough they lost a lot of reliability compared to a few decades ago. German brands do very well on the lease market because of that reputation and the high resale value because of that after 4-5 years.

French cars are mixed, they sometimes very reliable, but sometimes also a disaster. Italian and Uk cars are a maintenance/reliability nightmare.

Toyoto is very reliable, that is true, but i don't like the styling or how they function. And Toyota is quiet expensive here in Europe. But other Asian brands outside Toyota don't have that reputation. Honda or Kia or Hyundai are great cars when they work, and reliative cheap, but it's a bit a gamble to get a good one. Mazda almost disappeared because of unreliability of recent models.

And american brands outside ford are known here to break down all the time. That is the reputation they got down here, ineffcient with feul, too big and unreliable. Even Tesla, probally now the most popular american brand outside Ford, has that reputation down here. The only US cars that are popular here are Ford (EU models), Tesla, and big noisy polluting pickup trucks (RAM) and offroad verhicles (Jeep).

Off course this is all subjective views on car brands down here in Belgium.

 

[DanielT]

What would have been more exciting is if AN had started from the design of the Snell A3i and created a modern variant of that model. There is more potential to make a really good speaker then instead of using an 8 inch bass and a non WG tweeter as AN now does.

Check out the interesting baffle shape of the Snell A3i. The width of the baffle should also appeal to AN as it seems to be one of their USPs.
A modern variant of the Snell A3i. A tube amp suitable speaker with passive mid and tweeter (high sensitivity plus tube amp kind impedance) bass drivers in that three way speaker which is powered by an efficient class D amplifier. It would perhaps appeal to these tube dude lovers, of which there seem to be quite a few and of course they need speakers so why not satisfy the market need? Or such a design would be seen as a hybrid abomination by the tube purists? I'm just speculating now.

Snell A3i:

Troels about the Snell model:

Snell A3i

 

[Richard Austen]

@Richard Austen You missed the part about how Toyotas are more reliable, but they aren't wildly more reliable. Like I said, if Toyotas are so wonderful, why aren't they the only auto manufacturer left on this planet.

Something else is bothering me about you. I checked your content and all your posts are in this thread. I see that as the markings of a troll.

Not everyone values reliability at the top of the list of priorities - like you imply - Toyota may be the most reliable but maybe Honda and Subaru are "close enough" but offer a better driving experience (Honda Accord has often been said to be "more fun to drive" and I bought a Civic back in 1996 because it was more fun and looked better than a Toyota Tercel - the Tercel was number 1 the Civic was number 2 - I chose more fun.

I also applied a bit of logic that Civic Hatchback buyers at the time were under 20 and turned them into boom cars (along with the VW Golf). Tercels were bought by Grannies. My thinking was that 20-year-olds are FAR harder on their cars and thus Civic may be number 2 but if grannies bought them they would probably be far more reliable.

Also - Vehicles like the Subaru Outback are hugely popular in Canada because Subaru is generally said to have by far the best AWD set-up - at least among non-luxury brands - and we get a lot of snow. They also tend to have superior resale value. There is a nice couple who run the youtube channel called Motormouth and they recently talked about some otherwise really nice cars but their resale value is poor. So when looking at any car/sedan/EV etc it's worth looking at the total cost of ownership and what specifically tends to break down. So you may see a car that breaks down 5 times and another car that breaks down 6 times and you say "Well that's pretty close" - but if the one that breaks five times is because of things like a screen glitch or a glovebox that sticks - that's different than "Engine catches on fire" or the brake pedal snaps off under hard braking.

As for my posts - I only saw this thread via a Google search and since I have owned AN speakers for more than 20 years I wished to add a personal experience from someone who owns them and who also began as a measurement first second and third audiophile. Another poster noted that he doesn't like "subjectivists" coming onto ASR because there are "plenty of other forums" for that - and I understand that. That's why I am only sticking to this topic because I know that people like me disgust the regulars on ASR - this forum has a very clear reputation for this and I hadn't planned to keep replying but there have been several civil responses so I tried to respond to them. Basically, I wanted to note that there are a lot of very experienced listeners and reviewers out there who have heard all the major brands for decades - and warts and all - wound up choosing to buy AN speakers. As bad as SET measures - even the magazine that measured them - still chose it as the best "sounding" amplifier they heard. I think that that counts for something. I get that others think that liking the sound of it better than the sound of a Benchmark is crazy talk and they need endless excuses as to why that is - but it really comes down to - If one system makes me blubber on sad music - and makes me want to dance on dance music - and the other system causes me physical pain and irritation to where I want to leave the room - then it's really tough to ignore that "direct listening experience."

I admit I went down the rabbit hole of SET amps and making analogies that are "reaching" when even I know they are "reaching" - probably because I try to find a rationale for why I and others like the sound of SET because we feel it is more "right" sounding. I remember some articles from Eduardo de Lima on the technical advantages of SET amps but these were 15-20 years ago. Since I am on a page where he posters only care about technical arguments - and since SET amps have very little technical merit - it's a rather difficult discussion.

 

[Richard Austen]

He speaks about feedback to correct the speaker response. This is a totally different subject and much harder to achieve, due to the reaction time of the speaker. Don't confuse it with feedback used within an amplifier.

Without feedback amplifiers have a much higher gain and hence are unusable for the given task.

Its actually almost impossible to design an amplifier without any negative feedback because the gain of even a single amplifying device (tube, FET, bipolar transistor) is too high. Any power amplifier said to have no negative feedback uses local negative feedback around each single device (triode tubes may be the only exception since their gain is rather low) to keep the open loop gain low. Any book about electronics though contains the formulas which proof that global feedback over several amplifying stages results in higher linearity than using local feedback around each individual stage. It's just math.

Yes if you tend to follow Richard Vandersteen though he does not like feedback in amplifiers either.

Ralph Karsten and Richard have discussions on the Vandersteen forum.

Why Zero Feedback

You'd have to search more there - I can't find the exact links. In any case - personally, none of the technical arguments moved me to like SET more. Only the listening room did that. And if that isn't enough then it really doesn't matter.

 

[Richard Austen]

I don't know where you got that that german cars are not reliable. I'm driving german cars most of my life (Volksagen, Skoda (part of Volkswagen), Porche and BMW) and they never letted me totally down. A part may be broken or mallfunctioning, but i could still drive normal with it. And the few Mercedesses that i've driven were the same. German cars are reputed to be very reliable and efficient, that's why they are so popular here in Europe. Idem with Volvo (original swedish, now chinese owned), altough they lost a lot of reliability compared to a few decades ago. German brands do very well on the lease market because of that reputation and the high resale value because of that after 4-5 years.

French cars are mixed, they sometimes very reliable, but sometimes also a disaster. Italian and Uk cars are a maintenance/reliability nightmare.

Toyoto is very reliable, that is true, but i don't like the styling or how they function. And Toyota is quiet expensive here in Europe. But other Asian brands outside Toyota don't have that reputation. Honda or Kia or Hyundai are great cars when they work, and reliative cheap, but it's a bit a gamble to get a good one. Mazda almost disappeared because of unreliability of recent models.

And american brands outside ford are known here to break down all the time. That is the reputation they got down here, ineffcient with feul, too big and unreliable. Even Tesla, probally now the most popular american brand outside Ford, has that reputation down here. The only US cars that are popular here are Ford (EU models), Tesla, and big noisy polluting pickup trucks (RAM) and offroad verhicles (Jeep).

Off course this is all subjective views on car brands down here in Belgium.

According to Scotty Kilmer - a youtube mechanic for 50 years - one of the differences is that North America doesn't get the same "quality" of German cars that are sold in Europe. According to him we get the "junk" version of VW. So it's important to note some of the reliability ratings differ with markets. Skoda isn't even sold in North America I believe. The Toyota Hilux is hugely reliable in Australia but not sold in Canada. Perhaps because of your speed limits the cars need to be "built tougher."

The Mercedes in North America are generally not reliable. They often rank near the bottom down where Land Rover and Tesla live. The old saying "Take a Land Rover to the Bush - but if you want to come back then Land Cruiser.

Peter Qvortrup who owns Audio Note is a massive fan of older Mercedes and has a fleet of them for deliveries in the UK and making trips to dealers and his other plants in Europe. He has a few rare ones

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Recording Studios that use Genelec, Neumann, ATC, PMC are chosen with by the same mindset as the people who use Auto-Tune.

The former try to approach the sound of the original performance, the latter to change it..

 

[DSJR]

Mercedes went through a terrible corrosion problem some years back starting with easy-to-chip paint (ever driven on UK roads?) and apparently, many trade-ins went straight to auction or scrap. I believe that's sorted now as you do see quite a few around here around ten years old and a handful still from the 90's, but not many at all from the noughties era, at least here...

I remember the Philips Motional feedback speakers, but not with any fondness. I'd respectfully suggest that the idea was a good one fifty years ago, but drivers have improved no end since and maybe this technology isn't needed now?

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Speaking of speaker-amplifier interaction with associated feedback. If it works as intended, MFB seems to be a smart solution:

Motional Feedback (MFB) is an active high fidelity loudspeaker system[1] which was developed by the Dutch Philips brand in the early 1970s. The loudspeakers have built-in amplifiers and feature a feedback sensor on the woofer. The sensor measures the output signal of the woofer and compares it to the amplifier input signal.[2] This results in a very low[clarification needed] distortion and furthermore a more extended low frequency response in a relatively small enclosure. Any distortion induced by the enclosure or the woofer itself is immediately corrected by the feedback loop.[3] To a degree, the sensor-feedback system also compensates for non-optimal room acoustics.

Motional Feedback - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Motional Feedback (MFB)?

It seems to be a smart system, right? Common in constructions nowadays? In the art of audio sound reproduction it is well-known that the dynamic loudspeaker is more nonlinear and generates more distortion than all the other system components combined. This is particularly true at low...

audiosciencereview.com

I remember the Philips Motional feedback speakers, but not with any fondness. I'd respectfully suggest that the idea was a good one fifty years ago, but drivers have improved no end since and maybe this technology isn't needed now?

Subwoofers of velodyne use it, for example, with an accellometer, I also read once about a brand that uses a second voice coil as a dynamo, and kef uses it in their kc.. subwoofers en ls60, to reduce distortion - these are all smaller sealed enclosures. (Here the difference between what the voice coil receives and what it generates is used for correction.) Edit: The current in the voice coil is measured and then used for correction.. don't know if I put it right before, but it's the same idea.
The first philips mfb was not so good, Especially the 'middle models' of the second and third generation were rather good. 'The wall' of Pink Floyd is mixed on one of them: https://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/story-philips-rh544

 

[DanielT]

Another poster noted that he doesn't like "subjectivists" coming onto ASR because there are "plenty of other forums" for that - and I understand that. That's why I am only sticking to this topic because I know that people like me disgust the regulars on ASR - this forum has a very clear reputation for this and I hadn't planned to keep replying but there have been several civil responses so I tried to respond to them.

Regarding this That's why I am only sticking to this topic because I know that people like me disgust the regulars on ASR - ..
I don't think so at all. On the contrary, I think it's fun with subjective descriptions. After all, it's about feelings and we should be able to convey them to others anyway.
What can be annoying, and I'm not saying you belong to that category, are subjectivists who categorically deny all kind of objectivity and, in the worst case, even try to make subjective experiences into objective facts.

How do HiFi subjectivists choose subwoofers, for example? Appearance aside, when choosing a sub, don't HiFi subjectivists think in terms of SPL, air pumping ability, how far down in frequency the subwoofer digs and distortion levels? Or how do objectivists choose subwoofers? Just by chance?

I have nothing against tube amps. I just think they are so expensive for the performance you get. BUT for those who have the knowledge to DIY tinker with tube amps there I absolutely understand the allure of having such a hobby.

And! it's the price tag on the AN speakers, in relation to what they perform (objectively, we're still on ASR) that annoys some people, but that has nothing to do with you.

 

[DanielT]

Mercedes went through a terrible corrosion problem some years back starting with easy-to-chip paint (ever driven on UK roads?) and apparently, many trade-ins went straight to auction or scrap. I believe that's sorted now as you do see quite a few around here around ten years old and a handful still from the 90's, but not many at all from the noughties era, at least here...

I remember the Philips Motional feedback speakers, but not with any fondness. I'd respectfully suggest that the idea was a good one fifty years ago, but drivers have improved no end since and maybe this technology isn't needed now?

Subwoofers of velodyne use it, for example, with an accellometer, I also read once about a brand that uses a second voice coil as a dynamo, and kef uses it in their kc.. subwoofers en ls60, to reduce distortion - these are all smaller sealed enclosures. (Here the difference between what the voice coil receives and what it generates is used for correction.) Edit: The current in the voice coil is measured and then used for correction.. don't know if I put it right before, but it's the same idea.
The first philips mfb was not so good, Especially the 'middle models' of the second and third generation were rather good. 'The wall' of Pink Floyd is mixed on one of them: https://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/story-philips-rh544

If you look at page 3 from #44 in the thread I referred to about MFB, you will see a person, motoindo who DIYs with MFB.I think it looked exciting anyway.

Here are the pictures that motoindo posted in the mentioned thread:

Motional Feedback (MFB)?

Yamaha uses a servo system on their YST Subwoofers. I bought an old one this spring. Have it under the bed. Not a giant subwoofer but suitable for my bedroom.:) Edit: Or wait a minute, Yamaha writes negative outpot impedance amplifier. Maybe it's not MFB? Hm, negative outpot impedance...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[LTig]

Yes if you tend to follow Richard Vandersteen though he does not like feedback in amplifiers either.

Ralph Karsten and Richard have discussions on the Vandersteen forum.

Why Zero Feedback

People can like what they wants, but sho uld not try to justify those subjective preferences with fake objective facts. Fact is that negative feedback reduces THD and by doing so, also reduces IMD, not increase it. Simple measurements prove this beyond doubt. If higher order HD exists it's too low to be audible.

 

[Mart68]

People can like what they wants, but should not try to justify those subjective preferences with fake objective facts.

As the rational, measurement led approach becomes more popular we are seeing a lot more of this.

I don't get why people are afraid to say 'Yes, it measures poorly but I like it anyway.'

Everyone can respect that.

 

[Waxx]

People can like what they wants, but sho uld not try to justify those subjective preferences with fake objective facts. Fact is that negative feedback reduces THD and by doing so, also reduces IMD, not increase it. Simple measurements prove this beyond doubt. If higher order HD exists it's too low to be audible.

That is what they often don't like, especially the reduction of the THD. iy reduces the "warm sound" they want (and I also in a certain extend). The explenation they give is bullshit, but there is a reason why they are against it, that is perfect explainable as subjective taste for a coloured (disstorted) sound. Some people like that, others (the majority) not.

But off course negative feedback makes an amp technical better when used right, that is not a point of discussion for me. And even in tube amp, i like a healthy dosis of it, just not to much to surpress all THD, because that is why (at least one of the reasons) i bought mine, and not a clean class D amp (I have those also btw for other setups).

 

[Purité Audio]

As the rational, measurement led approach becomes more popular we are seeing a lot more of this.

I don't get why people are afraid to say 'Yes, it measures poorly but I like it anyway.'

Everyone can respect that.

If only the manufacturers, ( of poorly measuring equipment) would say this.
Keith

 

[A Surfer]

As the rational, measurement led approach becomes more popular we are seeing a lot more of this.

I don't get why people are afraid to say 'Yes, it measures poorly but I like it anyway.'

Everyone can respect that.

Absolutely agree. It is perfectly fine to enjoy something that doesn't top the charts. Really well put and timely.

 

[Mnyb]

There is an interesting conundrum with some tube topologies it may not be possible to apply enough NFB to make it good .

If you read Bruno P ( of purify etc ) there cant really be to much of it , but it can be to little .

If you apply a litle NFB HD2 migth go down but some higher nastier ones may still be inside audiability .

The whole amp must have gain and bandwidth enough to take a lot of feedabck and there are more complex schemes who aplies feedback within a certain band etc.

You can find yourself in a kind of dead end here and the logical approach is to use transistors ofcourse