Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[Miker 1102]

I bought a DENON AVR in 1990, with Dahlquist 905-M's for the mains (& used my Frazier Super Monte Carlo's for surrounds & Radio Shack some kind of omni for the rears. (The DENON never sounded good to me) & neither did that particular aluminum box omni-directional Radio Shack speaker. The DENON is long gone (& I have never bought another piece of DENON gear again, although I have listened to some, I haven't heard one that I would buy).
I still use the Dahlquist's (mains in my main 2.2 system) & the Frazier's (mains in my secondary system). It's highly unlikely that I will ever buy any DENON gear ever again. That one piece them for me.

I just was attacked

I would only add that I own Marantz so I really can't comment on your Denon experience but to add,
Not sure which Denon you have but if you've read Amirs reviews on a couple of there latest AVR's you will see they have measured near the top of all tested, price no object, and the numbers don't lie.
The final sound of any product containing Digital Room Correction software will depend on the inputs from it's owner. Have you tried the $20 Editor app yet, it allows you much more control over the software. If you have, I honestly wouldn't look to another $200 to solve the issue. If yours really does sound that bad, maybe you need to ask the guy in the mirror what he might be doing wrong?
No offense intended.

I have read Amirs reviews about Denon products. I don't have any technical issues with it. My room accoustics, sound curve on the app, are all good. I think the Denon amps I own..three now..all have an anemic, thin sound to them. Audessy corrects some dips in my room but again I find myself constantly adjusting it manually. Personally, if I had not read Amir's other reviews I would have sought a higher end avr. I bought an amp with Dirac and was thrilled with the software but the amp was very flawed and has reviewed poorly.

 

[Miker 1102]

I hope it works for you like it did for me. Let us know what you think.

Will do!

 

[chych7]

Here are some REW sweeps comparing no Audyssey vs Audyssey App ($20) vs MultEQ-X ($200). For this comparison, I turned off MRC, Dynamic EQ/volume, set all speakers to small w/80 Hz crossover, used the default target curve. I tried to match the microphone positions while running Audyssey, but there will invariably be some inconsistency between the two calibrations. I used REW/UMIK-1 to measure the result, without changing the mic position.

End result is that the App and MultEQ-X is essentially giving the same result at the MLP, as far as I can tell. I also checked the error between the L and R channels, and they were pretty much the same.

So far I'm not seeing the $200 value. Let me try some more measurements at different positions...

Edit: forgot to add receiver, this is a Denon X3600H with XT32.

 

[Ata]

I have not seen all the videos yet, but would like to know if MultEQ-X "levels" the playing field and achieves identical quality of DRC on Denons like X1x00H and X2x00H, which are limited to MultEQ XT, whereas the X3x00H and higher models support XT32? At the low end, even X7x0H is supported by MultEQ-X but only gets MultEQ (no XT)...

Or, are the MultEQ XT limitation due to inferior DSP hardware in X1x00H and X2x00H, making the cost of the new app is even more questionable for these entry level AVRs?

 

[Ata]

Here are some REW sweeps comparing no Audyssey vs Audyssey App ($20) vs MultEQ-X ($200). For this comparison, I turned off MRC, Dynamic EQ/volume, set all speakers to small w/80 Hz crossover, used the default target curve. I tried to match the microphone positions while running Audyssey, but there will invariably be some inconsistency between the two calibrations. I used REW/UMIK-1 to measure the result, without changing the mic position.

End result is that the App and MultEQ-X is essentially giving the same result at the MLP, as far as I can tell. I also checked the error between the L and R channels, and they were pretty much the same.

So far I'm not seeing the $200 value. Let me try some more measurements at different positions...

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What AVR model is this with, and what MultEQ level does it support (XT, XT32, ...)?

 

[Ata]

I can only answer that question one way, truthfully.
Why are others are only giving you the READY version, and others only giving you the LIMITED version and others the FULL version? They had to pay Dirac for each level of software they've included, so somewhere in the end, YOU paid for it up front. That's only common sense.
As to Audyssey, D-M has included the MultiEQ XT-32 level of software on most every AVR and Pre/Pro they sell.
A very good DRC piece of software that has included individual dual sub tuning for 5+ years now.
The next level will only cost you $20 and is a tremendous value for that little bit of money. I've had it since it was first made available around 3 years ago and it's offered me just about everything I could ask for in DRC.
The newest $200 level will buy you a lot more, now and in the future, but only so far as you own that unit.
There are a number of variables here that may or may not make it a good value to you. As of now I haven't purchased it due only to the fact that my Pre/Pro is already 5 years old and the current policy of it's life ending with my current unit doesn't make it a good value for me.
YMMV

Thanks! I was making the point that with the latest Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer there is no need for a USD200 upgrade to Dirac Full (unlike with the NADs), it is already full FR, and AVR cost is USD1000-1400 depending on model, vs Dirac Live on standalone PC/Mac for USD500. So yes, you do pay upfront, but pricing is very competitive against D/M as well as the standalone Dirac license. You do not get DBLC, though.

My AVR supports MultEQ XT, and I am very happy with it in multichannel movie mode, but in stereo music mode Dirac Live sounded noticeably superior. I have not had a chance to experience Dirac Live multichannel yet (no eval is available).

I think the main added value of MultEQ-X is in 2-sub management, which I do not have.

 

[chych7]

What AVR model is this with, and what MultEQ level does it support (XT, XT32, ...)?

Denon X3600H with XT32, forgot to mention that. I use a miniDSP too for more bass correction, but didn't here obviously.

I also remeasured at different positions and again, the app and MultiEQ-X are giving very similar results (to within some noise, which is expected because the mic positions couldn't be exactly matched between the two calibration).

 

[Miker 1102]

Thanks! I was making the point that with the latest Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer there is no need for a USD200 upgrade to Dirac Full (unlike with the NADs), it is already full FR, and AVR cost is USD1000-1400 depending on model, vs Dirac Live on standalone PC/Mac for USD500. So yes, you do pay upfront, but pricing is very competitive against D/M as well as the standalone Dirac license. You do not get DBLC, though.

My AVR supports MultEQ XT, and I am very happy with it in multichannel movie mode, but in stereo music mode Dirac Live sounded noticeably superior. I have not had a chance to experience Dirac Live multichannel yet (no eval is available).

I think the main added value of MultEQ-X is in 2-sub management, which I do not have.

You make a real point that full Dirac is now present in a average consumer AVR. It's hard to justify the 200 dollar charge. I bought a Pioner 305lx and really liked the Dirac but the amp was very limited wirh global crossovers and poor sounding dsps. I think I jumped the gun and should have waited for the Rz50 according to what I have read. I bought my most recent Denon x4400 to kind of fill in the gap and based off of reading Amir's reviews about Denon. I think Denon is a great popcorn movie night machine but I really would like something good for both music and films. Audessy had not gotten me there yet. I have a couple of budget Denon in my kids rooms for thier Xbox games.

 

[EJ3]

I think the Denon amps I own..three now..all have an anemic, thin sound to them.

Describes my old DENON perfectly! None of my other gear (several pieces of which have tested well by Amir here on this sight) ever sounded anemic, thin...

 

[chych7]

For the Dirac vs XT32 argument, I did run into this (apologize if this was already mentioned, it's a long thread...):

https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/audyssey-xt32-vs-dirac-live-listening-comparison.117433/

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/audio-processing/117433-audyssey-xt32-vs-dirac-live-listening-comparison-6.html#post1257473

Key point is that with the same target curve and setup pattern, XT32 and Dirac sound the same. MultEQ-X does let you really easily set a proper target curve (I added a -1 dB/dec tilt), and it does sound good with it. Can do this with the app too, with a bit more effort. You can also do a setup pattern similar to Dirac, with MultEQ-X.

It would be nice if someone can do such a direct comparison today with the best type of setup pattern, perhaps things have changed since this study.

 

[Sal1950]

So far I'm not seeing the $200 value. Let me try some more measurements at different positions...

All I can say about what I'm seeing is Audyssey appears to be trying to correct for some severe suck-outs in your stock results. I don't know for sure but I imagine there are some limits set on the amount of boost it can apply for fear of causing speaker damage. At 60hz it has already injected almost 10db boost, how much more do you think would be reasonable? Do you think it would be a good idea to inject another 8db boost manually to get it into the 'flat" area?
I don't think you'd see much different results from any other DRC wizard.

 

[Sal1950]

I think the Denon amps I own..three now..all have an anemic, thin sound to them. Audessy corrects some dips in my room but again I find myself constantly adjusting it manually.

No automated DRC is perfect.
As to your experiece, if you are constantly adjusting it manually, you are adjusting to a personal preference that varies in what your getting from source to source. In that case you would be doing the exact same thing whatever the DRC.

 

[dlaloum]

You make a real point that full Dirac is now present in a average consumer AVR. It's hard to justify the 200 dollar charge. I bought a Pioner 305lx and really liked the Dirac but the amp was very limited wirh global crossovers and poor sounding dsps. I think I jumped the gun and should have waited for the Rz50 according to what I have read. I bought my most recent Denon x4400 to kind of fill in the gap and based off of reading Amir's reviews about Denon. I think Denon is a great popcorn movie night machine but I really would like something good for both music and films. Audessy had not gotten me there yet. I have a couple of budget Denon in my kids rooms for thier Xbox games.

When looking at the Onkyo family, it is worth looking at all three brands - Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer - the feature set and pricing differ across them....

I wanted Dirac and full Pre-Outs, and do not need more than 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 - so I focused in on the Integra version of the LX305/NR7100... the DRX 3.4 - depending on your region/distributor and discounting, there may or may not a price difference between them. - Power was not a concern for me as I plan on using external LCR amplification.

 

[nuport]

While I'm probably going to take the expensive plunge, there is nothing stopping any of us from using REW + Umik-1 + ratbuddyssey

GitHub - ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey: Audyssey .ady file editor

Audyssey .ady file editor. Contribute to ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

As fieldcar mentioned, I fail to see what this app can do that Ratbuddyssey cannot. I didn't even bother downloading Ratbuddyssey; on AVSforum you can find the adjustments needed for a specific target curve and copy/paste/replace using notepad in your ADY file. Someone there summarized them in an Excel spreadsheet with a bunch of different curves too.

 

[chych7]

All I can say about what I'm seeing is Audyssey appears to be trying to correct for some severe suck-outs in your stock results. I don't know for sure but I imagine there are some limits set on the amount of boost it can apply for fear of causing speaker damage. At 60hz it has already injected almost 10db boost, how much more do you think would be reasonable? Do you think it would be a good idea to inject another 8db boost manually to get it into the 'flat" area?
I don't think you'd see much different results from any other DRC wizard.

Yes I do have some severe suckouts that aren't getting well corrected, but I also believe this is because XT32 is not advanced enough to correct it. For example, it uses the same EQ for both sub channels, instead of treating them independently, and I do not think it time aligns multiple subwoofers correctly. Thus I use a miniDSP with Multi Sub Optimizer on top of the Audyssey correction (and also I do this so I can get more uniform bass across two rows of seating; without it, my second row bass sounds like garbage).

In the below result with the miniDSP, more of the peak/nulls are suppressed. It isn't adding any very high gain PEQ, but it is time aligning the subs better and treating them independently. I do get some kind of new peak forming at 18 Hz, not sure why as it's not intended, but it's not audible. Note that this is optimized for two rows of seating, and I'm just measuring at the front row MLP (I'd get even better results if I just optimized at the MLP).

I do find it disappointing that Audyssey has not tried to improve their SubEQ bass correction. I think the hardware is there to do a more advanced correction, like Multi Sub Optimizer. Maybe in a future MultEQ-X this can be enabled.

 

[Chromatischism]

Thank you for this post. I honestly don't like the way my Denon sounds at all. Sometimes I feel like I am using a different product than other people .Maybe I should order an RZ 50 and wait? Based on your post I will try the windows app and this will be the last money I ever spend on an audessy/Drnon if I cannot get a decent sound profile.

I have read Amirs reviews about Denon products. I don't have any technical issues with it. My room accoustics, sound curve on the app, are all good. I think the Denon amps I own..three now..all have an anemic, thin sound to them. Audessy corrects some dips in my room but again I find myself constantly adjusting it manually. Personally, if I had not read Amir's other reviews I would have sought a higher end avr. I bought an amp with Dirac and was thrilled with the software but the amp was very flawed and has reviewed poorly.

My guess is it's not the Denon that you dislike, but other parts of the setup or speakers, even speaker positioning that could be improved. Or, there is something wrong with the unit.

 

[Chromatischism]

Here are some REW sweeps comparing no Audyssey vs Audyssey App ($20) vs MultEQ-X ($200). For this comparison, I turned off MRC, Dynamic EQ/volume, set all speakers to small w/80 Hz crossover, used the default target curve. I tried to match the microphone positions while running Audyssey, but there will invariably be some inconsistency between the two calibrations. I used REW/UMIK-1 to measure the result, without changing the mic position.

End result is that the App and MultEQ-X is essentially giving the same result at the MLP, as far as I can tell. I also checked the error between the L and R channels, and they were pretty much the same.

So far I'm not seeing the $200 value. Let me try some more measurements at different positions...

Edit: forgot to add receiver, this is a Denon X3600H with XT32.

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View attachment 185996

The value is not in a different form or quality of correction algorithm. If that's what you thought you were getting, you read the wrong marketing copy, because they never advertised that.

What they did say is that you will get a better interface with more control and more features to come than the app can do.

 

[Miker 1102]

My guess is it's not the Denon that you dislike, but other parts of the setup or speakers, even speaker positioning that could be improved. Or, there is something wrong with the unit.

Honestly, I used the Honda analogy. Excellent engineered behicle but not exactly fun to drive. I prefer my Bmw. The Denon software core correction is cumbersome, has limited permission abilities, and does not address two subs well enough for them to be asking 200 dollars for it. Maybe I am an outlier, but haven't we shelled enough money out for room correction for these units. Dirac is remarkably better and everyone knows this. So why not make a deal with them? I dont think Denon owners should be forced into minidsp because they have. No alternative or wait to see if a full Dirac on an affordable reviever is with in reach. I am not complaining about Denon..I think they make very good products that function but lack that dynamic punch to drive music to the next level..no matter how many hours you spend screwing with 32x . I am gonna bite the bullet today and try thr 200 dollar app and probably sell out my 14 year old music fan self to the man

 

[chych7]

The value is not in a different form or quality of correction algorithm. If that's what you thought you were getting, you read the wrong marketing copy, because they never advertised that.

What they did say is that you will get a better interface with more control and more features to come than the app can do.

Yeah I half knew this would be the case, but the other half was hoping something changed in the algorithm, given that it computes different values for distances/gains and some people here have noted subjective improvements. Oh well, you win some, you lose some. For the extra control it gives you over the app, I'd say $50 is reasonable, but not $200 (unless it also comes with an algorithm improvement).

 

[Chromatischism]

Honestly, I used the Honda analogy. Excellent engineered behicle but not exactly fun to drive. I prefer my Bmw. The Denon software core correction is cumbersome, has limited permission abilities, and does not address two subs well enough for them to be asking 200 dollars for it. Maybe I am an outlier, but haven't we shelled enough money out for room correction for these units. Dirac is remarkably better and everyone knows this.

I have used both and based on my experience I don't agree. I also don't believe there is any objective third party testing showing Dirac is "remarkably better".

I'm not saying it isn't good. It is. I am just not at all convinced it's worth premium they ask for it.