Bad Sounding Equipment that Measures Well

[Blumlein 88]

This reminds me of an odd problem I had years ago. Had a low pressure sodium outdoor lamp to light up my yard. Kids shot and broke the outer envelope of the bulb with a BB gun. The inner part was still working and created some odd interference on my power lines. It caused my CD player to play 5 seconds, back up 4 seconds, play 5 seconds, back up 4 seconds. This herky jerky playback was quite the problem and took me awhile to figure out. I still don't know how that could happen other than it did and turning off the lamp fixed it. Do we need to design gear for that?

The fellow who lived below the TV towers ended up adding decorative perforated metal sheets on three sides of his equipment rack and a more open metal plate on the front as a door. All of which he grounded.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Well, you have to define what "sounds bad" means because it is an utterly subjective notion. I gave you an example of something that sound objectively bad and you are choosing to say that this is a special case scenario.

"Sounds Bad" = can you tell a difference (not talking headphones or speakers), but DACS, Amps, PreAmps. If Amir says they are transparent, they should sound the exact same (level matched). Sure, one amp might drive a more difficult load more easily and that has value, but within their operating specifications they should sound identical.

You are ridiculing my example by equating it to a scenario involving a microwave which is not what I am doing at all . Living within 10km from an airport IS within expected operating condition.

No one is ridiculing you, just saying it's not an expected operating condition. You should look for equipment with good RF rejection, but that's not a manufacturers normal operating condition.

All this to say, you are asking a rhetorical question and baiting people to say something that you know will be based on subjective listening experience. What is the only possible outcome? You will then ask them to prove it and they won't be able to do it in an empirical way. This way, you will reinforce your own belief that a piece of equipment that measures well inevitably sounds transparent.

Unless the purpose of this thread was to weed out and deal with us SBAF-posting troublemakers

No, the purpose was to find out if there was bad sounding equipment that measured well. For example, maybe someone could point out that a headphone amp, as it approaches 130 dB SINAD are great for pushing earbuds, but could never drive most planar magnetic headphones. That if you want the best headphones you HAVE to sacrifice amplifier measurements because of some weird electrical issue that occurs (I'm no electrical engineer).

 

[FeddyLost]

That's really tough question in principle.
I know my own bad hearing, strong biases and all other reasons not to trust myself. Also, I like different heavy and electronic music.

So, to keep it easy i decided to
1) stick to equipment with
a) good measurements
b) conventional "good sound"
c) my own listening comfort
2) do not really 100% trust to any claims about "realism" and "authenticity" except i.e. sound engineer who personally recorded something acoustic or routinely working orchestra conductor and - most important - do not really care about that matter ...

 

[Plcamp]

The way I think about this is that what “sounds good” is inclusive of a very large number of factors, including but not limited to what is measured here to differentiate the electrical performance of competing products a,b,c,d,e. Human factors enter the “sounds good” realm, including when you had your last whiskey, which comfy chair you happened to choose.

The value I see in a “10 dB better SINAD” is more an appreciation that to achieve that higher score, the design had to get important things right...it is an indicator of design quality even if the 10db difference isn’t audible at all.

I want to get to the stage where my choice of which whiskey makes things sound better is the biggest determining factor in my listening environment.

“Today I am listening to the red leather chair Glenmorangie system”!

 

[Colonel7]

that the special sauce is about what is added, not transparency.

And in life, we come to realize that the secret special sauce turns out to be ketchup and mayonnaise. On the other side advances have not so secret sauce with white papers and often peer-reviewed research behind them, backed by measurements.

 

[Plcamp]

This reminds me of an odd problem I had years ago. Had a low pressure sodium outdoor lamp to light up my yard. Kids shot and broke the outer envelope of the bulb with a BB gun. The inner part was still working and created some odd interference on my power lines. It caused my CD player to play 5 seconds, back up 4 seconds, play 5 seconds, back up 4 seconds. This herky jerky playback was quite the problem and took me awhile to figure out. I still don't know how that could happen other than it did and turning off the lamp fixed it. Do we need to design gear for that?

The fellow who lived below the TV towers ended up adding decorative perforated metal sheets on three sides of his equipment rack and a more open metal plate on the front as a door. All of which he grounded.

I was, many moons ago, the director of a telecoms test lab at Nortel...we routinely tested for narrowband and broadband (ESD) conducted and radiated susceptibility of emerging products, including telephones and D/A line cards. I have seen and diagnosed some pretty extreme problems, causing loss of functionality, noise and even false signalling. (Noise immunity was a regulated customer acceptance criteria, requiring a specific c-band max level).

I will say from that experience that even tiny routing/grounding errors in PCB and I/o design can make gigantic differences. I had one example where removing 12 mm of trace length on a voltage reference tl431 completely immunized a phone from losing functionality when within 10’ of a handheld walk-in talkie.

It would be nice if there were a standard test of audio equipment that quantifies the response of the unit to transient rf bursts on I/O cables...that would be, I think, a useful figure of merit.

 

[Jimbob54]

"Sounds Bad" = can you tell a difference (not talking headphones or speakers), but DACS, Amps, PreAmps. If Amir says they are transparent, they should sound the exact same (level matched). Sure, one amp might drive a more difficult load more easily and that has value, but within their operating specifications they should sound identical.

No one is ridiculing you, just saying it's not an expected operating condition. You should look for equipment with good RF rejection, but that's not a manufacturers normal operating condition.

No, the purpose was to find out if there was bad sounding equipment that measured well. For example, maybe someone could point out that a headphone amp, as it approaches 130 dB SINAD are great for pushing earbuds, but could never drive most planar magnetic headphones. That if you want the best headphones you HAVE to sacrifice amplifier measurements because of some weird electrical issue that occurs (I'm no electrical engineer).

No, the headamp example is no different to the RF example. Operating outside its designed parameters/ less than ideal conditions. The amp in that headamp scenario is no different to the speaker amp asked to drive loads it wasnt designed for. That's a spec incompatibility, not a bad sound.

 

[Lambda]

Operating outside its designed parameters

But a USB DAC for example should be designed to operate flawlessly if subject to conducted and radiated noise a PC is allowed to emit.

 

[SimpleTheater]

But a USB DAC for example should be designed to operate flawlessly if subject to conducted and radiated noise a PC is allowed to emit.

Agreed, unless that PC is a 15 yr old Compaq laptop.

 

[Lambda]

SimpleTheater a 15 yr old Compaq laptop is at least build and tested to some standards!
A new Gaming PC with a >400W GPU and the cheapest power supply someone build at home in a case with a glass window is not.

Don't quote me on this and please duel check its just from the top of my head and can be wrong!
up to 30Mhz a PC is allowed to have 79dBµV peak common mode voltage?

So for a good dac/amp i would like them to perform flawlessly under conditions like this with a fair bit of safety margin.

The DAC don't need to perform flawlessly if use next to an Arc Welder but thinks like a PC,TV,WiFi router shuld be no Problem and considered by the manufacturer.

 

[kemmler3D]

Grave-bumping this thread because I got to wondering - are there any solid examples of anything that measures good and sounds bad? Speakers and headphones included?

By "measures good" I think we know what I mean. Not just on-axis or whatever, a full suite of proper measurements that all check out.

By "sounds bad" i mean there is at least some significant consensus that it sounds bad. Something that measures well that almost nobody particularly likes, consistently gets bad subjective reviews, etc.

The hardcore subjectivists say it so often you'd think there'd be a whole Wikipedia page full of references, but I've yet to encounter one in my entire life.

 

[dorakeg]

Grave-bumping this thread because I got to wondering - are there any solid examples of anything that measures good and sounds bad? Speakers and headphones included?

By "measures good" I think we know what I mean. Not just on-axis or whatever, a full suite of proper measurements that all check out.

By "sounds bad" i mean there is at least some significant consensus that it sounds bad. Something that measures well that almost nobody particularly likes, consistently gets bad subjective reviews, etc.

The hardcore subjectivists say it so often you'd think there'd be a whole Wikipedia page full of references, but I've yet to encounter one in my entire lilife

I would say its not so much about the gear but rather a person's personal preferences/perception/expectations.

One common triat with gears that meaures well is that they tend to be very neutral and transparent. They lack sonic signatures of their own, "straight wire gains". So, if you have extremely neutral sound with no emphasis on any part, it can sound bland and lacking life or sparkle. Some people like it because it accurately reporduces the recording, some don't. So, whether sounds good or bad depends alot on the individual. Some gears have additional tone/EQ controls so users could adjust it to their preference.

There are also examples of what measures not so good but sounded good. Quite a number of people loves smooth sounding vocals (including myself). I came to realise that "smooth" sounding is due to lack of minute details in the sound. When a person drags his/her voice, there will always be minor variations in the tone. If the recording is well done and gear is very revealing, this variation will be audible. Some gears may also reveal the sibilance more than others.

I am pseronally a fan of Krell (although couldn't afford their gears). I believe most would have heard of their popular amps like FPB and Evo series. Their Evo amps measured very well and sounds great in subjective test as well. However, not everyone likes it. Quite a number of people still prefer the older FPB amps due to the sonic characteristic of it. There are also owners of their SACD players but didn't like the sound because of it sounded bland (its a very neutral player).

 

[kemmler3D]

I would say its not so much about the gear but rather a person's personal preferences/perception/expectations.

One common triat with gears that meaures well is that they tend to be very neutral and transparent. They lack sonic signatures of their own, "straight wire gains". So, if you have extremely neutral sound with no emphasis on any part, it can sound bland and lacking life or sparkle. Some people like it because it accurately reporduces the recording, some don't. So, whether sounds good or bad depends alot on the individual. Some gears have additional tone/EQ controls so users could adjust it to their preference.

There are also examples of what measures not so good but sounded good. Quite a number of people loves smooth sounding vocals (including myself). I came to realise that "smooth" sounding is due to lack of minute details in the sound. When a person drags his/her voice, there will always be minor variations in the tone. If the recording is well done and gear is very revealing, this variation will be audible. Some gears may also reveal the sibilance more than others.

I am pseronally a fan of Krell (although couldn't afford their gears). I believe most would have heard of their popular amps like FPB and Evo series. Their Evo amps measured very well and sounds great in subjective test as well. However, not everyone likes it. Quite a number of people still prefer the older FPB amps due to the sonic characteristic of it. There are also owners of their SACD players but didn't like the sound because of it sounded bland (its a very neutral player).

Yes, plenty of examples of "bad" gear that sounds good. But I wouldn't say (just because some people don't care for it) that neutral gear sounds bad. It sounds neutral, which to me is "good".

Let's make the definition of "bad" even tighter here: Is there any gear that measures well, but people who don't mind a neutral sound signature generally think it sounds bad?

You can find always find someone to say a given piece of gear sounds bad, 100% of the time. But I sincerely doubt that gear with objectively good measurements could simply sound flat-out bad despite that. That would imply measurements are basically meaningless, which we know they are not, or that science has yet to discover some important and entirely new dimension of hearing, which I seriously doubt.

 

[dorakeg]

Yes, plenty of examples of "bad" gear that sounds good. But I wouldn't say (just because some people don't care for it) that neutral gear sounds bad. It sounds neutral, which to me is "good".

Let's make the definition of "bad" even tighter here: Is there any gear that measures well, but people who don't mind a neutral sound signature generally think it sounds bad?

You can find always find someone to say a given piece of gear sounds bad, 100% of the time. But I sincerely doubt that gear with objectively good measurements could simply sound flat-out bad despite that. That would imply measurements are basically meaningless, which we know they are not, or that science has yet to discover some important and entirely new dimension of hearing, which I seriously doubt.

For this case, I too doubt it. I would say there will be some differences between good and great gears but they all sound very good.

Generally, I would say that we will be hard pressed to find hifi gear that sound bad, even budget ones are still pretty good these days. We have gone past the days when one need to spend lots of money just to have good sound. I am glad technology has improved vastly in the past 20yrs and we all benefit from it.