Bypassing Streamer (Wiim) DAC

[bigfanres]

I’m a newbie, to digital, I admit it.

I’m confused on digital to digital output and if DA conversion occurs once, twice.

I’d like to stream (have a Pro + w the DAC), to my R26 R2R (which I feed to a Levinson preamp via XLR).

If I’m running Wiim via say Optical (24/192 vis WiFi), into Gustard, am I getting the R26 “final” conversion or is the signal. Ever converted? Related, am I introducing noise with the Wiim and I’m better off adding a LAN wifi adapter to tnt R26 and attempt to stream via iOS/Mac (or over DLNA). Or should I just have gotten the Wiim mini to act as a “better” streamer / UI then the R26?

TIA, and apologies if topic addressed previously as I saw similar but it was Closed recently.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

A sketch might help!

If you take S/PDIF over optical or copper into the Gustard at e.g. 44 x 16, you won't have used the Wiim internal DAC.

 

[staticV3]

If I’m running Wiim via say Optical (24/192 vis WiFi), into Gustard, am I getting the R26 “final” conversion or is the signal. Ever converted?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

If you do WiiM->Toslink->Gustard, then the WiiM's built-in DAC is bypassed and the Gustard receives digital audio untouched, at least if you disable EQ, downsampling, and volume control on the WiiM.

Related, am I introducing noise with the Wiim

No.

 

[bigfanres]

A sketch might help!

If you take S/PDIF over optical or copper into the Gustard at e.g. 44 x 16, you won't have used the Wiim internal DAC.

Would this be preferred (beyond UI qualities) rather then using the R26s LAN port with a WiFi dongle to limit the “chain” from Wiim Optical - both I assume are limited to 24/192 (whether it’s actually received in LAN port due to the WiFi adapter)?

 

[bigfanres]

I'm not sure I understand your question.

If you do WiiM->Toslink->Gustard, then the WiiM's built-in DAC is bypassed and the Gustard receives digital audio untouched, at least if you disable EQ, downsampling, and volume control on the WiiM.


No.

From Amir’s posted review measurements of WiiM, he notes zero/no SQ impact on Pro+ due to EQ, volume, not sure of downsampling (but I don’t intend to).

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Would this be preferred (beyond UI qualities) rather then using the R26s LAN port with a WiFi dongle to limit the “chain” from Wiim Optical - both I assume are limited to 24/192 (whether it’s actually received in LAN port due to the WiFi adapter)?

S/PDIF is a domestic version of the professional AES serial digital protocol which is robust, low latency and bit-perfect. You can't get better than that. The only reason not to use it is if the sending device has high jitter and the receiving device is poor at jitter handling.

The other approach is unnecessarily complex adding delay and network buffering to cover jitter, potentially likely to suffer interference.

 

[bigfanres]

To clarify, I’m presently running the Wiim to Gustard R26 via Optical, so check. That said, I’m serving a stream of 24/192 to the Wiim via WiFi. So my question is would I be better off serving it to the R26 directly via LAN port with a Wifi adapter on it (if I can even don’t that from Amazon Music Ultra, Quboz, Tidal ). I know I don’t know enough about my own product and clearly should.

 

[Jimbob54]

To clarify, I’m presently running the Wiim to Gustard R26 via Optical, so check. That said, I’m serving a stream of 24/192 to the Wiim via WiFi. So my question is would I be better off serving it to the R26 directly via LAN port with a Wifi adapter on it (if I can even don’t that from Amazon Music Ultra, Quboz, Tidal ). I know I don’t know enough about my own product and clearly should.

A quick look online suggests the r26 streaming functionality is more as an endpoint from existing upnp/ roon servers set up on your network as opposed to streaming services out in the wild like Amazon, Spotify etc. I may be wrong but I think it would need quite a firmeware ugrade plus companion app to work with any such services properly.

So stick with optical in from the Wiim and be happy.

 

[Vincent Kars]

http://www.gustard.cn/qfy-content/uploads/2022/07/b669e827d55d7c660317cf9860670ce0.pdf says Roon and UPnP.
You might connect it to the network and install an app like BubbleUPnP on your phone.
If you have a UPnP server in your LAN, BubbleUPnP probably can use the R26 as a renderer and play the content of the server on it.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

To clarify, I’m presently running the Wiim to Gustard R26 via Optical, so check. That said, I’m serving a stream of 24/192 to the Wiim via WiFi. So my question is would I be better off serving it to the R26 directly via LAN port with a Wifi adapter on it (if I can even don’t that from Amazon Music Ultra, Quboz, Tidal ). I know I don’t know enough about my own product and clearly should.

I can not think of any benefit from the alternative approach. Optical is fine. Even if you added a wireless connection, you would add delay and potential disruption. You could use an intermediary as a DLNA end-point, but the Wiim is better at this sort of thing

I used to design/operate very lareg media IP networks. I would NEVER pick wireless over a copper or fibre connection. Wireless has greater complexity and more fault modes. My golden rule was - if you can own the ducts and install copper and fibre you have all the choices!

 

[bigfanres]

Some sellers (located in let’s say Scandinavian country region) are telling me the Wiim (and other inferior products) will introduce jitter and error even if over optical. Whether this is audible, albeit measurable, I don’t know. I think I’ll try to set up a DLNA network for the R26 to access via LAN, perhaps with 2018 vintage MacMini to manage the local files I’ll download and rip from my CDs and companion software (and I can run that with my iPad as an airplay interface). Does this approach make sense beyond streaming?

 

[morillon]

Some sellers (located in let’s say Scandinavian country region) are telling me the Wiim (and other inferior products) will introduce jitter and error even if over optical. Whether this is audible, albeit measurable, I don’t know. I think I’ll try to set up a DLNA network for the R26 to access via LAN, perhaps with 2018 vintage MacMini to manage the local files I’ll download and rip from my CDs and companion software (and I can run that with my iPad as an airplay interface). Does this approach make sense beyond streaming?

it's the mini which on toslink generates a high jitter... ( pro is better)
afterward it will be more or less well managed on the receiver side on the dac side...

 

[Vincent Kars]

Wiim (and other inferior products) will introduce jitter and error even if over optical.

This is a common feeling in the audiophile community, cheap can't be good, expensive is good and more expensive is even better.
From a dealers perspective this products are hopeless, you don't make much money with them. One rather sells a $5000 streamer.

albeit measurable

Measurements prove it is most of all not measurable, the jitter performance of even the Toslink is pristine. Check the Digital Performance section in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../wiim-pro-review-measurements-streamer.42300/

Don't know if there are good DLNA implementations in the Apple world. It is not natively supported. Airplay is probably much easier to implement. You do have to accept the 24/48 limitation. Bit unclear if Airplay servers in a LAN still downsample to AAC.

 

[morillon]

This is a common feeling in the audiophile community, cheap can't be good, expensive is good and more expensive is even better.
From a dealers perspective this products are hopeless, you don't make much money with them. One rather sells a $5000 streamer.


Measurements prove it is most of all not measurable, the jitter performance of even the Toslink is pristine. Check the Digital Performance section in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../wiim-pro-review-measurements-streamer.42300/

Don't know if there are good DLNA implementations in the Apple world. It is not natively supported. Airplay is probably much easier to implement. You do have to accept the 24/48 limitation. Bit unclear if Airplay servers in a LAN still downsample to AAC.

the measurement protocol is completely biased (rme input processing steadyclock) and tells you nothing about jitter... ;-)
unfortunately must be reminded regularly ... but now that s know... rme cannot be used for this purpose...* ;-)

Post in thread 'My Pro tests' https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/my-pro-tests.186/post-1896

* maybe one day rme will be able to disconnect the steadyclock?? will be interesting for our crafts...

 

[staticV3]

Some sellers (located in let’s say Scandinavian country region) are telling me the Wiim (and other inferior products) will introduce jitter and error even if over optical. Whether this is audible, albeit measurable, I don’t know. I think I’ll try to set up a DLNA network for the R26 to access via LAN, perhaps with 2018 vintage MacMini to manage the local files I’ll download and rip from my CDs and companion software (and I can run that with my iPad as an airplay interface). Does this approach make sense beyond streaming?

See this video WRT jitter in digital audio: https://youtu.be/f_r33B4jptA

It's a complete non-issue.

 

[morillon]

the ASR-style situation is really becoming a sad impasse that we can all observe....
;-)
nothing is audible... no one can.. but we continue to measure, classify, comment, buy etc hihi ;-)
(the somewhat comical situation concerning DAC etc for quite a while has not escaped anyone .. all perfectly transparent, not discernible, but some still a little more than others..hihi ;-) )

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Some sellers (located in let’s say Scandinavian country region) are telling me the Wiim (and other inferior products) will introduce jitter and error even if over optical. Whether this is audible, albeit measurable, I don’t know. I think I’ll try to set up a DLNA network for the R26 to access via LAN, perhaps with 2018 vintage MacMini to manage the local files I’ll download and rip from my CDs and companion software (and I can run that with my iPad as an airplay interface). Does this approach make sense beyond streaming?

The cheapest Wiim has marginal jitter, but it's probably not audible.

Regarding what the dealers are telling you, you ought to apply a bit of Critical Thinking which some consider a part of the scientific approach.
Why are they suggesting this - is there something beneficial to them to steer down a different path? Is it true about jitter? Is jitter audible, if so, at what level? Can the effects of jitter be minimised? How does a studio centre with a thousand digital ins and outs cope if jitter is such a problem?

 

[Greenman]

To clarify, I’m presently running the Wiim to Gustard R26 via Optical, so check. That said, I’m serving a stream of 24/192 to the Wiim via WiFi. So my question is would I be better off serving it to the R26 directly via LAN port with a Wifi adapter on it (if I can even don’t that from Amazon Music Ultra, Quboz, Tidal ). I know I don’t know enough about my own product and clearly should.

I did this exact comparison with my R26 and WiiM mini via toslink a few months ago. I used JPlay on iOS to front end the LAN option.

Each option was audibly indistinguishable to me. I preferred the JPlay front end to the WIIM app but I wasn’t prepared to pay an ongoing JPLAY subscription so i reverted back to the WiiM>toslink>R26 option and I can live with the quirks of the WiiM app interface.

i suppose it’s possible that local factors might have an impact on the results so YMMV, but many seem to criticise the optical method without actually trying it, it has the advantage of guaranteeing no noise or grounding issues are introduced via the input connection. So by all means try the LAN option but my bet is that you aren’t missing anything by using your current method.

 

[bigfanres]

I did this exact comparison with my R26 and WiiM mini via toslink a few months ago. I used JPlay on iOS to front end the LAN option.

Each option was audibly indistinguishable to me. I preferred the JPlay front end to the WIIM app but I wasn’t prepared to pay an ongoing JPLAY subscription so i reverted back to the WiiM>toslink>R26 option and I can live with the quirks of the WiiM app interface.

i suppose it’s possible that local factors might have an impact on the results so YMMV, but many seem to criticise the optical method without actually trying it, it has the advantage of guaranteeing no noise or grounding issues are introduced via the input connection. So by all means try the LAN option but my bet is that you aren’t missing anything by using your current method.

Were you on LAN, local or WiFi into the Wiim?

I’ve read Toslink is limited to 96khz, then again I’ve read it will do192khz which 75ohm Coax does. I’d sure like to think the R2R ladder DAC in the $1600 R26 performed audibly better then the chip in the $200 Wiim

 

[Greenman]

Were you on LAN, local or WiFi into the Wiim?

I’ve read Toslink is limited to 96khz, then again I’ve read it will do192khz which 75ohm Coax does. I’d sure like to think the R2R ladder DAC in the $1600 R26 performed audibly better then the chip in the $200 Wiim

For clarity I was comparing: WiiM>toslink>R26. vs. JPLAY >lan>R26. So WiiM dac element not being compared here, only using wiim As streamer vs JPLAY via LAN.

the wiim is a wiim mini so is connected to the network via WiFi. Toslink is guaranteed to 96khz, but I have no trouble whatsoever with 192khz hires files from Qobuz via the WiiM and toslink to the R26.