Cable Burn-In - Myth or Fact?

[boxerfan88]

It's a thread that should be closed and the pixels saved.

Naah. We should let this thread run it’s course. I have my popcorn ready. Subscribed.

 

[Anton D]

Dude needs to read the room.

Yes, he should only say things the arbiters agree with.

I think it's a great chance to send some of those cables to Glorious Leader and do some measurements!!!

Maybe a small wager?

 

[Anton D]

So send one to Amir with instructions and some samples of un-burned in cables. Let him test before and after burn in.

Bing and Go!!!!

Love this.

 

[DonH56]

Cable Burn-In - Myth or Fact?​

Myth. Perceptual bias is alive and well.

(There are "burn-in" mechanisms that happen quickly, like ns or us, as dielectric traps and such are filled, but those affect things at the nV and fV level IME and are not audible.)

 

[MacClintock]

There is only one reliable test if the burn-in process (for cables or other gear) really works: did the wife from the kitchen stop washing dishes, came over and asked what change in the sound just happened?

 

[boxerfan88]

I see that the FryCorder2 only burns 1W based on the spec sheet.

Wouldn’t it be better to just plug the power cord to a kettle and boil water once. That would surely burn-in the power cord very well, no?

 

[sam_adams]

⟵

 

[DonR]

There is only one reliable test if the burn-in process (for cables or other gear) really works: did the wife from the kitchen stop washing dishes, came over and asked what change in the sound just happened?

it is the gold standard in measurement technique.

 

[bachatero]

There actually IS burn in to cables, but doing so would make them space heaters that smell horrible

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hey, those Viking space probes would be priceless if we could retrieve them. They have wire that has been irradiated, cryogenically frozen, burned in and aged for decades. Plus there must be some quantum entanglement effect as one of them came back in a Star Trek movie sequel. Plus they have spent time beyond the heliosphere which might improve them in ways we cannot even imagine (but surely could hear).

 

[Jim Hagerman]

The folks on this site will generally be responsive to actual measurements

Of course they are. Is that the only thing open for discussion here?

I'm not sure exactly how to test for haze, clarity, openness, transparency, dynamics, smear, etc. It would be great if we could (similar to distortion and noise). What I have learned is that the human ear / brain is a fantastic measuring device that can pick out things our instruments cannot (so far). When I design equipment I start with pencil & paper, move on to simulations(optional), then prototypes, doing as many measurements as possible. I pretty much tune everything by oscilloscope. Once that is done I use my ears, as it is the quickest and best way to hear if a capacitor brand or type substitution (or any other circuit change) offers any benefit.

For cables we can check dielectric absorption, permittivity, capacitance, ESL and ESR, field coupling (electric and magnetic). Also, what changes occur over temperature and humidity? Perhaps a TDR would give some interesting results? All of the above parameters could affect sonics. Clearly, a well designed silver / teflon cable might sound better than lamp cord?

Shoes break in as well as speakers. A diamond stylus can wear out. It is easy to understand mechanical changes (leather becomes softer with use). Why not electrical? Tubes fade and weaken as emission and transconductance drops.

 

[BlackTalon]

If burn in changes the sound it should be measurable.

 

[MacClintock]

Of course they are. Is that the only thing open for discussion here?

I'm not sure exactly how to test for haze, clarity, openness, transparency, dynamics, smear, etc. It would be great if we could (similar to distortion and noise).

Well, there are well established measures, like smear to noise ratio or total harmonic haziness, so what is missing?

What I have learned is that the human ear / brain is a fantastic measuring device that can pick out things our instruments cannot (so far). When I design equipment I start with pencil & paper, move on to simulations(optional), then prototypes, doing as many measurements as possible. I pretty much tune everything by oscilloscope. Once that is done I use my ears, as it is the quickest and best way to hear if a capacitor brand or type substitution (or any other circuit change) offers any benefit.

The ears are the most reliable tool of all, that is for sure! Together with the brain, they cannot be fooled!

Shoes break in as well as speakers. A diamond stylus can wear out. It is easy to understand mechanical changes (leather becomes softer with use). Why not electrical? Tubes fade and weaken as emission and transconductance drops.

The analogy of leather and electric current makes total sense, basically the same things.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

What I have learned is that the human ear / brain is a fantastic measuring device that can pick out things our instruments cannot (so far).

In fact, the truth is just opposite from what you have written. The human ear/brain is easy to fool, subject to many biases and quite insensitive and inaccurate in comparison to commonly-used testing equipment.

People have made claims similar to this before. So far, these claims have never stood up to blind testing with proper controls. I think you know that.

Jim

 

[GXAlan]

https://rc.library.uta.edu/uta-ir/bitstream/handle/10106/24069/Scully_uta_2502D_12395.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

This is one of the best papers on wires with real science. Basically everything happens well beyond the audible range.

Tin-on-copper has the risk of developing poor conductivity over time from the intermetallic layer so there is some rationale to avoiding tin-on-copper but even then, it is unlikely to be audible.

So it’s not that the science is lacking. It is that the science really shows that Even if you fully believe in cables, I guarantee you repurposing that money towards better speakers will be a better idea.

 

[Ruhled]

You should have stuck with phono stages.

 

[nerdemoji]

Of course they are. Is that the only thing open for discussion here?

I'm not sure exactly how to test for haze, clarity, openness, transparency, dynamics, smear, etc. It would be great if we could (similar to distortion and noise). What I have learned is that the human ear / brain is a fantastic measuring device that can pick out things our instruments cannot (so far). When I design equipment I start with pencil & paper, move on to simulations(optional), then prototypes, doing as many measurements as possible. I pretty much tune everything by oscilloscope. Once that is done I use my ears, as it is the quickest and best way to hear if a capacitor brand or type substitution (or any other circuit change) offers any benefit.

For cables we can check dielectric absorption, permittivity, capacitance, ESL and ESR, field coupling (electric and magnetic). Also, what changes occur over temperature and humidity? Perhaps a TDR would give some interesting results? All of the above parameters could affect sonics. Clearly, a well designed silver / teflon cable might sound better than lamp cord?

Shoes break in as well as speakers. A diamond stylus can wear out. It is easy to understand mechanical changes (leather becomes softer with use). Why not electrical? Tubes fade and weaken as emission and transconductance drops.

The main problem is that these things have been tested. and even more important, differences in sound (through FFT measurements such as Amir's) are far below audibility. Further, if you do a level matched blind test, you are so very unlikely to find differences (I mean none at all).

 

[Descartes]

Before and After Burned in can you guess?

I am laughing my head off!

 

[Ken1951]

Will no one rid us of this troublesome cable believer?

 

[GD Fan]

Send 'em in for testing - otherwise this is just a thread dedicated to duping the rubes.