Can you hear a difference? 250hz and 1250hz playing at same time, but 1250 Hz is at 60db down. Vs pure 250hz tone.

[Pdxwayne]

You are stereotyping all ASR members and lumping them all into one category. This could not be farther from the truth. Keep this conversation civil and respectful and you will not see me again. This thread is beginning to require more and more of my attention. This is rarely a good thing.

See my post above yours. My mistake really for not careful with my words.

 

[AdamG]

Again, it is my mistake for not more careful with my general use of "ASR" when I said "double standard". It was to express my frustration with certain members here. Definitely not about ASR admin. Not aiming at you either.

You are one of the most valuable members here. You are very patient and polite and I truly appreciate you taking time to explain many things to me in my threads.

Adam said I exhibit member trolling behavior. I really hope not. If you also think I am trolling you, I apologize. Never my intention. My issues was with your statements, not with you as a person. You are great member here and a great person to be friend with.

My goodness man, what I said to you in a PM (Private Message) is supposed to remain private. This action alone can be grounds for immediate account banning. I’m going to overlook this and give you a redo. Please don’t make me regret this.

 

[Pdxwayne]

My goodness man, what I said to you in a PM (Private Message) is supposed to remain private. This action alone can be grounds for immediate account banning. I’m going to overlook this and give you a redo. Please don’t make me regret this.

Fit it. Next time please don't close the conversation with just your single post please. Let me have a chance to clarify please. It is very easy for forum post to be misunderstood.

 

[Robbo99999]

@Pdxwayne and others, I redid the test with your test files, but this time gradually EQ'ing up the 1250Hz area to see how many dB's I need to add to the Harman Curve at that point in order to reliably detect the 1250Hz tone, or at least the difference between the 2 files. I was using my HD600 EQ'd to the Harman Curve apart from adding a 1250Hz Q2 +7.5dB filter. This is the same thing as listening to a -52.5dB 1250Hz test tone mixed in with your 0dB 250Hz tone - whilst imagining you are testing it on a Harman EQ'd headphone. Here are my results, I passed all of them, it's possible I could have reduced the +7.5dB filter at 1250Hz a bit more and still detected it, but not by much, I don't think I'd do much better than a -55dB 1250Hz test tone. It's true that I was able to see the effect of raising & lowering the playback volume to best accentuate the 1250Hz tone, and I did that prior to the test to get in the ballpark best playback volume.

foo_abx 2.0.6d report
foobar2000 v1.6.7
2021-10-25 16:06:46

File A: 250hz_h2_to_h4_120_h5_60.wav
SHA1: b604c1acb2c2cdc3fd9bceba6aef1358de8d1a6e
File B: 250hz_tone.wav
SHA1: 9bedd7cc84145a54cc2979ec4bbf86d51f0f082a

Output:
Default : Primary Sound Driver
Crossfading: NO

16:06:46 : Test started.
16:12:56 : 01/01
16:13:29 : 02/02
16:13:47 : 03/03
16:14:07 : 04/04
16:14:25 : 05/05
16:14:47 : 06/06
16:15:09 : 07/07
16:15:25 : 08/08
16:15:25 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 8/8
p-value: 0.0039 (0.39%)

 

[Pdxwayne]

@Pdxwayne and others, I redid the test with your test files, but this time gradually EQ'ing up the 1250Hz area to see how many dB's I need to add to the Harman Curve at that point in order to reliably detect the 1250Hz tone, or at least the difference between the 2 files. I was using my HD600 EQ'd to the Harman Curve apart from adding a 1250Hz Q2 +7.5dB filter. This is the same thing as listening to a -52.5dB 1250Hz test tone mixed in with your 0dB 250Hz tone - whilst imagining you are testing it on a Harman EQ'd headphone. Here are my results, I passed all of them, it's possible I could have reduced the +7.5dB filter at 1250Hz a bit more and still detected it, but not by much, I don't think I'd do much better than a -55dB 1250Hz test tone. It's true that I was able to see the effect of raising & lowering the playback volume to best accentuate the 1250Hz tone, and I did that prior to the test to get in the ballpark best playback volume.

foo_abx 2.0.6d report
foobar2000 v1.6.7
2021-10-25 16:06:46

File A: 250hz_h2_to_h4_120_h5_60.wav
SHA1: b604c1acb2c2cdc3fd9bceba6aef1358de8d1a6e
File B: 250hz_tone.wav
SHA1: 9bedd7cc84145a54cc2979ec4bbf86d51f0f082a

Output:
Default : Primary Sound Driver
Crossfading: NO

16:06:46 : Test started.
16:12:56 : 01/01
16:13:29 : 02/02
16:13:47 : 03/03
16:14:07 : 04/04
16:14:25 : 05/05
16:14:47 : 06/06
16:15:09 : 07/07
16:15:25 : 08/08
16:15:25 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 8/8
p-value: 0.0039 (0.39%)

Thank you for further checking! So for you, your limit is at about -55db.

Another member mentioned -57db.

Interesting range of limits.

Thanks again!

 

[pma]

This might be a mix of individual threshold limits and HW used. In my case, I never use any EQ curve with headphones, I see no benefits of using it, in my personal case with my headphones.

I also do not use EQ with my speakers and I do not use room correction. I tried room correction and abandoned it after short time. My room is reasonably damped and the room correction below say 300 Hz resulted only in a very limited listening area (physically).

 

[Pdxwayne]

This might be a mix of individual threshold limits and HW used. In my case, I never use any EQ curve with headphones, I see no benefits of using it, in my personal case with my headphones.

I also do not use EQ with my speakers and I do not use room correction. I tried room correction and abandoned it after short time. My room is reasonably damped and the room correction below say 300 Hz resulted only in a very limited listening area (physically).

Curious, with speakers, is it also easy for you to tell a difference?

In my case, only my Paradigm Persona B is easy to tell a difference. Everything else I need to concentrate.

 

[pma]

Curious, with speakers, is it also easy for you to tell a difference?

Did not try and will not try

 

[Pdxwayne]

Did not try and will not try

No problem. : )

I checked my old REW measurements of my speakers in my living room.

Left side, one ft from middle of head, 250hz is +6db louder than 1250hz.

Right side, one ft from middle of head, 250hz is about 2db lower than 1250hz.

I think the 2db difference on the right is what made it so easy for me to sense a difference. I was actually hearing -58 down.

 

[pma]

I checked my old REW measurements of my speakers in my living room.

Me too .

 

[Pdxwayne]

Me too .

View attachment 161384

Haha, it should be more difficult for you than headphones.

Anyway, I tried -70 two days ago and can still sense a very small difference with my speakers. So I am not sure what exactly that means. It means my speakers is more resolving than my AK371? Or something else in my room is helping with such small dB difference....Hmm.....

 

[pma]

Haha, it should be more difficult for you than headphones.

Anyway, I tried -70 two days ago and can still sense a very small difference with my speakers. So I am not sure what exactly that means. It means my speakers is more resolving than my AK371? Or something else in my room is helping with such small dB difference....Hmm.....

I think it is difficult to say, there might be many influences like reflections etc. The main reason why I used only headphones is that they have lower distortion than speakers and are free of issues that we are now mentioning. The result with speakers might have been pointless. I think that you have exhausted all possibilities of your test and it is time to move on .

 

[Pdxwayne]

I think it is difficult to say, there might be many influences like reflections etc. The main reason why I used only headphones is that they have lower distortion than speakers and are free of issues that we are now mentioning. The result with speakers might have been pointless. I think that you have exhausted all possibilities of your test and it is time to move on .

Yup, I am done with my tests. Good enough to know that I can sense it.
: P

So, I think I can conclude with this:
1. It is easy for some, not easy for some.
2. Not everyone can sense -60db.

Oh, BTW, when you said "trivial" when you presented your abx results, I think you meant it was "easy" for you. At least I hope so....
; )

Thanks!

 

[Jimbob54]

Yup, I am done with my tests. Good enough to know that I can sense it.
: P

So, I think I can conclude with this:
1. It is easy for some, not easy for some.
2. Not everyone can sense -60db.

Oh, BTW, when you said "trivial" when you presented your abx results, I think you meant it was "easy" for you. At least I hope so....
; )

Thanks!

I think a better conclusion for #2 is not everyone can sense it in the circumstances they tested it under. I dont believe there is enough to conclude the same individuals couldnt detect it in other circumstances. Equipment/ environment and in some instances training may well come into play.

 

[Tim Link]

I thought about getting married and having children to reinforce my audio beliefs but decided to say single and childless....

Now you have to buy cable lifters because you don't have anybody to hold your cables up while listening to music.

 

[levimax]

I think it is difficult to say, there might be many influences like reflections etc. The main reason why I used only headphones is that they have lower distortion than speakers and are free of issues that we are now mentioning. The result with speakers might have been pointless. I think that you have exhausted all possibilities of your test and it is time to move on .

I have been playing around with this a little more and I think doing this test with speakers has issues. There is one spot (probably many actually) in my room I found where hearing the 2 tones is "trivially easy" even for me. For other spots it is completely impossible for me. Headphones (HD 650) I find much harder but they are much more consistent.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I have been playing around with this a little more and I think doing this test with speakers has issues. There is one spot (probably many actually) in my room I found where hearing the 2 tones is "trivially easy" even for me. For other spots it is completely impossible for me. Headphones (HD 650) I find much harder but they are much more consistent.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[spacevector]

I just played a 250Hz tone and found that if I move about the room, the loudness changes quite a bit getting quite quiet in certain spots of the room. 1250Hz tone seems like was more constant in nature. May be room mode related phenomenon and likely explains relative difficulty/ease users reported with discerning the difference.

@Pdxwayne - do you have an SPL meter to check loudness of 250Hz and 1250Hz close to the speaker and your LP? Could be you have a dip at 250Hz at your LP making it easier to hear the 1250Hz component.

And just for the record, I do not think your posts were troll behavior. Persistent, yes and possibly annoying for some but were made in good faith. FWIW.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I just played a 250Hz tone and found that if I move about the room, the loudness changes quite a bit getting quite quiet in certain spots of the room. 1250Hz tone seems like was more constant in nature. May be room mode related phenomenon and likely explains relative difficulty/ease users reported with discerning the difference.

@Pdxwayne - do you have an SPL meter to check loudness of 250Hz and 1250Hz close to the speaker and your LP? Could be you have a dip at 250Hz at your LP making it easier to hear the 1250Hz component.

And just for the record, I do not think your posts were troll behavior. Persistent, yes and possibly annoying for some but were made in good faith. FWIW.

I really appreciate your feedbacks, especially the last paragraph.
: )

I looked at my other REW measurements of my speakers in living room and indeed there are dips in 250hz as compared to 1250hz. The speakers positions were different than what I have now, but not too different, thus overall freq response should not change too much, I think.

So yeah, speakers in room is not accurate way to check, at least for me. So my impression with headphones should be more reliable indication of my hearing sensitivity.

Thanks again!

 

[abdo123]

I did the ABX on a pair of Marshal Major II EQed to Harman Curve, so i hope no more ridiculous claims of 'cheating' are thrown out at me again

File A: 250hz_h2_to_h4_120_h5_60.wav
SHA1: b604c1acb2c2cdc3fd9bceba6aef1358de8d1a6e
File B: 250hz_tone.wav
SHA1: 9bedd7cc84145a54cc2979ec4bbf86d51f0f082a

Output:
Default : Primary Sound Driver
Crossfading: NO

18:34:37 : Test started.
18:34:45 : 01/01
18:34:56 : 02/02
18:35:07 : 03/03
18:35:17 : 04/04
18:35:38 : 05/05
18:35:47 : 06/06
18:36:04 : 07/07
18:37:11 : 08/08
22:28:37 : 09/09
22:28:49 : 10/10
22:29:03 : 11/11
22:29:13 : 12/12
22:29:25 : 13/13
22:29:36 : 14/14
22:29:46 : 15/15
22:29:55 : 16/16
22:29:55 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16
p-value: 0 (0%)

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