Cost no object dac/streamer

[andreasmaaan]

It's not a reason to chuck out hi fi playback, but we have to keep in mind its importance in the scheme of things. We have to know we are reproducing something already severely flawed. The speakers and the microphones are usually directional units. And sound is typically omnidirectional in source. Even the omnidirectional microphones capture the sound down into mono or stereo.
I'm surprised sound reproudction sounds as great as it does!

I agree with almost all of what you've said @garbulky but I don't agree that sound is typically omnidirectional. It really depends on the instrument and the frequency range of interest. Voices and wind instruments etc. tend to be quite monopolar/directional, particularly at high frequencies, while most drums tend to be more dipolar. String instruments more closely approach omni, although they tend to have quite chaotic polar patterns which are moreover affected significantly by the position of the player in relation to the instrument and the listener.

The other main limitation which I don't think has been mentioned directly is the fact that even omni mics capture reflected sounds from all angles around them in the recording space, while in reproduction these reflections are then projected to the listener from just two locations (the speakers) in the reproduction space.

There are no real solutions with current technologies, just better and better illusions.

For these reasons I see stereo recording and mixing as more of a craft in itself - a way of capturing a particular acoustic events in a particular way that is suited to stereo reproduction - rather than as an attempt to capture a faithful facsimile of the original acoustic event.

So not "completely flawed", because in my book the goalposts are simply in a different place. The stereo recording and reproduction system is capturing and manipulating acoustic sounds in a particular way and utilising them to fulfil a purpose other than the faithful reproduction of those acoustic sounds. And at its best, doing it extremely well.

Bit of a ramble here sorry ppl

 

[tourneychamp23]

Can we generate these thoughts into actual products or suggestions?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Can we generate these thoughts into actual products or suggestions?

Immersive?

One example: https://www.genelec.com/bang-olufsen-chooses-genelec-its-virtual-reality-laboratory

 

[Thomas savage]

Immersive?

One example: https://www.genelec.com/bang-olufsen-chooses-genelec-its-virtual-reality-laboratory

Do you eat genelec breakfast cereal and sleep in genelec bed sheets? Lol

 

[sonci]

I recommend "Psychoacoustics: Facts and Models" by Zwicker and Fastl.

I don't know about Zwicker and Fast, and what these have discovered in human hearing, but we know shit in how we hear.
There are several theories but none of them is definitive, we just know how the signal gets to the cochlea then ..?..
We are so ignorant that after centuries can't treat a basic simptom such as tinnitus or at least prevent presbycusis..

 

[svart-hvitt]

Do you eat genelec breakfast cereal and sleep in genelec bed sheets? Lol

They´re an interesting company to follow. Few put more resources into R&D than Genelec (15% of sales).

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't know about Zwicker and Fast, and what these have discovered in human hearing, but we know shit in how we hear.
There are several theories but none of them is definitive, we just know how the signal gets to the cochlea then ..?..
We are so ignorant that after centuries can't treat a basic simptom such as tinnitus or at least prevent presbycusis..

Someone gives you an excellent source to inform you of what is known about hearing. Clearly you are aware of only a small fraction of what is known. You would learn much to read Zwicker. Yours is not a good reaction. It is that of someone with mind made up and not wanting their misconceptions upset.

 

[Thomas savage]

They´re an interesting company to follow. Few put more resources into R&D than Genelec (15% of sales).

Ah that’s a yes then

 

[tourneychamp23]

Immersive?

One example: https://www.genelec.com/bang-olufsen-chooses-genelec-its-virtual-reality-laboratory

I meant actual dacs and streamers lol

 

[svart-hvitt]

I meant actual dacs and streamers lol

I thought you were talking about better products for reproduction of actual music. DACs and streamers are mature products that are all about features and looks.

 

[tourneychamp23]

I thought you were talking about better products for reproduction of actual music. DACs and streamers are mature products that are all about features and looks.

I'm only concerned with making a 2 channel system that sounds great and filtering through how much I actually need to spend to accomplish that and where in the system to allocate the most money.

 

[sonci]

Someone gives you an excellent source to inform you of what is known about hearing. Clearly you are aware of only a small fraction of what is known. You would learn much to read Zwicker. Yours is not a good reaction. It is that of someone with mind made up and not wanting their misconceptions upset.

That's not true! All is known about hearing is in my post.

 

[svart-hvitt]

That is absolutely a good point for keeping the eyes open for Genelec.

As importantly:

«Genelec is a family-owned company, where profits are produced as a consequence of doing business
in the most ethical and sustainable manner. The company’s goal has never been to make as much money as possible».
SOURCE: https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/About Us/40th_anniversary_book_en.pdf

That makes them unique. No wonder why so many people love to hate Genelec (there’s a thread on Gearslutz called «Love-hate relationship with Genelec») in an environment dominated by snake oil, cottage industry, one-man shows, legal copyright games, private equity buy-outs, stock market focus and empty marketing.

 

[Thomas savage]

These exchanges fall below the requirements of ASR. If you really want to argue a point you must be able to substantiate your position with more that pure rhetoric alone.

There’s been a lot of this of late and I’m not happy about it, Id rather have less content and more value on the forum. This was a thread about finding a streamer , it took a intresting turn wrt measurements vs dac into a computer etc then fell off into the gutter.

I can close it or you can all go find something better to do but the current trend for ‘ what I reckon ‘ rather than anything substantial is undesirable.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I don't know about Zwicker and Fast, and what these have discovered in human hearing, but we know shit in how we hear.
There are several theories but none of them is definitive, we just know how the signal gets to the cochlea then ..?..
We are so ignorant that after centuries can't treat a basic simptom such as tinnitus or at least prevent presbycusis..

Hmm... What are your sources for the idea that we know shit about how we hear? Have you studied this? I haven’t, but my basic grasp of the fundamentals of the auditory system don’t bear that statement out.

Moreover, we don’t need to understand everything about how a system does something to experimentally ascertain the limits of what it is able to do.

But in any case, we actually know a huge amount about both what and how with respect to hearing (with more to learn of course).

 

[andreasmaaan]

PS @sonci, I believe the textbook I mentioned is available for free online if you’d be interested in understanding this area better.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I don't know about Zwicker and Fast, and what these have discovered in human hearing, but we know shit in how we hear.
There are several theories but none of them is definitive, we just know how the signal gets to the cochlea then ..?..
We are so ignorant that after centuries can't treat a basic simptom such as tinnitus or at least prevent presbycusis..

Actually we know a great deal about acoustics and how we hear. More than most people on most hifi forums care to admit

That we can’t treat tinnitus yet is not a good enough reason to throw away the enormous knowledge that we do have.

 

[tourneychamp23]

I am not opposed to higher price gear I am just trying to sift through what is noticeable improvement and what is fake. Most of what I read on here suggests 90% of what I am going to spend should be on speakers because there isn't a huge delta difference on electronics

 

[Thomas savage]

Having a brief look at the BAACH software recently at a members house would suggest some have a great understanding of how we hear, how to manipulate things digitally and indeed how to create a graphical interface so you can play god with mono feeds placing them where ever you want in a true 3 dimensional space and all with only 2 channels while Maintaining all critical musical information.

If it were all such a mystery how would that be possible.

 

[Deleted member 65]

I am not opposed to higher price gear I am just trying to sift through what is noticeable improvement and what is fake. Most of what I read on here suggests 90% of what I am going to spend should be on speakers because there isn't a huge delta difference on electronics

Choosing a Streamer & DAC has never been easier then now, looks & various preferences excluded.

Choose a streamer from a well known supplier supporting the Application protocols you need eg Roon's RAAT, they're all computers in various disguises:

Then pick a DAC which has been measured to be audibly transparent fulfilling what other preferences yoy may have in terms of looks and functionality.

How hard can it be? ... ;-)