DAC blind tests? EVER?

[JSmith]

In order to be able to reliably hear the difference between DACs your system has to be very resolving.

JSmith

 

[oleg87]

In order to be able to reliably hear the difference between DACs your system has to be very resolving.
You can get more by upgrading amp than DAC. I have a decent DAC NAD M51 and Cary Audio 200W amp and was thinking that my system sounds very good - speakers disappearing, pinpointing instruments etc.
Got in-home demo of one amp and DAC. I tried to hook up DAC first and switched back and force. I could hear the difference but it was very minimal and I won't be able to tell surely in blind test which one is which. But after I switched the amp everything changed drastically. There was no need for any kind of blind test, it was like there was a wall between me and the instruments and now it is gone, they were playing next to me in my room. And you don't have to play it loud anymore to enjoy the sound-stage and all the details. I would say that it could be enjoyed minus 5-10 DBs compared to what I'm used to.
After that switching DACs was much more apparent, new DAC was making everything even more 3D and naturally sounding than mine. NAD was still fine, it's just it was easy to tell the difference. I would say that DAC did about 15-20% more on top of what switching amps made. I called a few folks so they can hear what I was hearing; it was rare opportunity to experience real music. Blind test was easily passed by all inexperienced and experienced listeners.
So if people say that there is no difference between DACs it's just their speakers and amps are not resolving enough. As a reference point - that amp is 35k CAD and for now I won't be able to afford it. I tried couple of others high-end amps since and none of them sounded like that. I know, it is ridiculous, you can buy a car for that money but once you heard it there is no way back Starting to save $$$...

If such a stark difference actually exists between two respectable-quality amps playing level-matched within their power delivery capabilities, at least one of them is broken.

Human hearing is an absolutely terrible gauge of anything objective. It is very easily and convincingly colored by expectation and non-auditory cues (like price/perception of quality). It is heavily biased by volume differences. Good blind A/B tests are a pain to set up but I suspect if you actually tried to tell them apart with nothing to go on but sound you'd guess right about 50% of the time. And I suspect if one of them was slightly louder, you'd reliably ascribe more favorable qualities to it. Now maybe you *do* have golden ears, I don't know, ears and brains are all different, but I've humbled myself many times trying to verify differences that I found quite audible in sighted/poorly controlled comparisons, and being utterly unable to when blind/level-matched.

 

[Jim Tonic]

VOLUMIO soundcheck invitation for Hamburg, Germany

Hi, this is an invitation for people located in Hamburg, Germany. My project is to find you, sharing comparing various volumio configuration with others. With a questionnaire i will evaluate the experience This might be a start for more events like this, maybe for amplifier, more DAC etc...

community.volumio.org

 

[BDWoody]

So if people say that there is no difference between DACs it's just their speakers and amps are not resolving enough.

More likely that they didn't do a properly set up test.

Try this:

Blind test was easily passed by all inexperienced and experienced listeners.

Can you describe this blind test please?

I tried couple of others high-end amps since and none of them sounded like that. I know, it is ridiculous, you can buy a car for that money but once you heard it there is no way back

Yes there is. It's called learning. Don't be victimized.

 

[akosinskiy]

Hey folks. Listen. I'm not here to argue or make you believe on what I heard with whole bunch of other people. I was in your camp - tried different DACs - Bryston, Audiolab, built-in DAC into my Marantz receiver. I used Shiit Freya S to switch between them. As I said - I could hear the difference on some music but overall it was a wash which led me to conclusion that my NAD is just fine.
I asked the guy to bring me just his DAC since I knew that it is expensive and potentially should be on a different level - if I could hear the difference. And as I said the difference was there but was just too marginal with my chain so I'm like - whatever, paying 10+k$ won't be worse the it.
Luckily he brought his amp too. It is hard to compare amps on the fly because you have to switch the cables. DACs is so much easier - just switch the input, run it from the same streamer so you can go back and forth. I did try to equalize sound levels to my best abilities to make sure that it is apples to apples. I know that louder you play you get a perception of better SQ. But... the new amp doesn't require to play same level as my old one - as I mentioned already, I enjoyed it on lower volume levels. There was simply no comparison. And no, I don't have golden ears nor other people in the room. I didn't even know how much it costs since I never thought of upgrading my amp.
I just wanted to share my experience. I think that it all goes with the rest of your chain. I know that my speakers are very fast and accurate. So they have potential to play better with a better amp. Without any disrespect, don't want to offend anyone but if I'm to take something like Monitor Audio I don't think that the difference in amps would be that big, it's just the speaker is not resolving enough (I used to own a pair). I hope that noone would be arguing that speakers DO make a difference - as a room treatment.
As soon as I upgraded the amp I can start hearing the difference in the DACs - because now the rest of my chain (speaker+amp) was highly resolving and before amp was a week link. I would say that from upgrade perspective now my priority is: speakers, amp, DAC.
Another interesting fact is that myself with couple of folks listened the same amp with other speakers in 15-20k CAD range. It was not sounding well at all, boring, etc. Yes, different rooms, although dealers should be able to play with the setup but we all agreed that what I have at home sounds better. It was not amp's fault.
So that's my take on this. I can believe when people are saying that DACs don't matter. I've been there myself too. If you want to keep thinking that I'm just imagining this myself (same as 5 other guests) - so be it.
P.S. someone was saying that maybe my current amp is faulty. My friend has Bryston with the same speakers and although sound is slightly different (more bright, but it could be room related too) it is very similar to what I have. He was one of the most skeptical on DACs and amps and now he has changed his mind too.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hey folks. Listen. I'm not here to argue or make you believe on what I heard with whole bunch of other people. I was in your camp - tried different DACs - Bryston, Audiolab, built-in DAC into my Marantz receiver. I used Shiit Freya S to switch between them. As I said - I could hear the difference on some music but overall it was a wash which led me to conclusion that my NAD is just fine.
I asked the guy to bring me just his DAC since I knew that it is expensive and potentially should be on a different level - if I could hear the difference. And as I said the difference was there but was just too marginal with my chain so I'm like - whatever, paying 10+k$ won't be worse the it.
Luckily he brought his amp too. It is hard to compare amps on the fly because you have to switch the cables. DACs is so much easier - just switch the input, run it from the same streamer so you can go back and forth. I did try to equalize sound levels to my best abilities to make sure that it is apples to apples. I know that louder you play you get a perception of better SQ. But... the new amp doesn't require to play same level as my old one - as I mentioned already, I enjoyed it on lower volume levels. There was simply no comparison. And no, I don't have golden ears nor other people in the room. I didn't even know how much it costs since I never thought of upgrading my amp.
I just wanted to share my experience. I think that it all goes with the rest of your chain. I know that my speakers are very fast and accurate. So they have potential to play better with a better amp. Without any disrespect, don't want to offend anyone but if I'm to take something like Monitor Audio I don't think that the difference in amps would be that big, it's just the speaker is not resolving enough (I used to own a pair). I hope that noone would be arguing that speakers DO make a difference - as a room treatment.
As soon as I upgraded the amp I can start hearing the difference in the DACs - because now the rest of my chain (speaker+amp) was highly resolving and before amp was a week link. I would say that from upgrade perspective now my priority is: speakers, amp, DAC.
Another interesting fact is that myself with couple of folks listened the same amp with other speakers in 15-20k CAD range. It was not sounding well at all, boring, etc. Yes, different rooms, although dealers should be able to play with the setup but we all agreed that what I have at home sounds better. It was not amp's fault.
So that's my take on this. I can believe when people are saying that DACs don't matter. I've been there myself too. If you want to keep thinking that I'm just imagining this myself (same as 5 other guests) - so be it.
P.S. someone was saying that maybe my current amp is faulty. My friend has Bryston with the same speakers and although sound is slightly different (more bright, but it could be room related too) it is very similar to what I have. He was one of the most skeptical on DACs and amps and now he has changed his mind too.

The amp is easy enough to believe. The DAC less so though knowing the DACS would be good.

Otherwise sighted listening simply won't get the job done. The difference has to be very large to be heard that way. Chances are much , much greater the difference is not really there in a form you can hear.

Did you meticulously match levels with a voltmeter at all times? That's step one even sighted.

 

[ahofer]

In order to be able to reliably hear the difference between DACs your system has to be very resolving.

Uh huh.

 

[BDWoody]

I'm not here to argue or make you believe on what I heard with whole bunch of other people.

That's a relief.

If you want to keep thinking that I'm just imagining this myself (same as 5 other guests) - so be it.

If you want to believe that the level of control used for your evaluation was sufficient to draw the conclusions you did, so be it. The reality is that our brains are very tricky, and if you don't go through a little more effort to isolate those ears the results aren't going to be as meaningful as most would hope.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Don't know about the blind test, but I do know SBAF conducts detailed sighted tests which they call "Dac Offs."

No, I'm not kidding.

 

[solderdude]

I am glad that my ears, brain, headphones, amplifiers, speakers are not 'resolving' enough. Saves me having to buy DACs costing more than $ 100.-

 

[Talisman]

Hey folks. Listen. I'm not here to argue or make you believe on what I heard with whole bunch of other people. I was in your camp - tried different DACs - Bryston, Audiolab, built-in DAC into my Marantz receiver. I used Shiit Freya S to switch between them. As I said - I could hear the difference on some music but overall it was a wash which led me to conclusion that my NAD is just fine.
I asked the guy to bring me just his DAC since I knew that it is expensive and potentially should be on a different level - if I could hear the difference. And as I said the difference was there but was just too marginal with my chain so I'm like - whatever, paying 10+k$ won't be worse the it.
Luckily he brought his amp too. It is hard to compare amps on the fly because you have to switch the cables. DACs is so much easier - just switch the input, run it from the same streamer so you can go back and forth. I did try to equalize sound levels to my best abilities to make sure that it is apples to apples. I know that louder you play you get a perception of better SQ. But... the new amp doesn't require to play same level as my old one - as I mentioned already, I enjoyed it on lower volume levels. There was simply no comparison. And no, I don't have golden ears nor other people in the room. I didn't even know how much it costs since I never thought of upgrading my amp.
I just wanted to share my experience. I think that it all goes with the rest of your chain. I know that my speakers are very fast and accurate. So they have potential to play better with a better amp. Without any disrespect, don't want to offend anyone but if I'm to take something like Monitor Audio I don't think that the difference in amps would be that big, it's just the speaker is not resolving enough (I used to own a pair). I hope that noone would be arguing that speakers DO make a difference - as a room treatment.
As soon as I upgraded the amp I can start hearing the difference in the DACs - because now the rest of my chain (speaker+amp) was highly resolving and before amp was a week link. I would say that from upgrade perspective now my priority is: speakers, amp, DAC.
Another interesting fact is that myself with couple of folks listened the same amp with other speakers in 15-20k CAD range. It was not sounding well at all, boring, etc. Yes, different rooms, although dealers should be able to play with the setup but we all agreed that what I have at home sounds better. It was not amp's fault.
So that's my take on this. I can believe when people are saying that DACs don't matter. I've been there myself too. If you want to keep thinking that I'm just imagining this myself (same as 5 other guests) - so be it.
P.S. someone was saying that maybe my current amp is faulty. My friend has Bryston with the same speakers and although sound is slightly different (more bright, but it could be room related too) it is very similar to what I have. He was one of the most skeptical on DACs and amps and now he has changed his mind too.

I do not want to make fun of you, it would be rude, and I KNOW that you really think you have heard those differences, you are in absolute good faith, and therefore I ask you to perform a blind test done according to the canons of the video that was linked to you, and tell us your results.

 

[Thomas_A]

I found a link on ASR to a test made long ago between two CD-players, where I found my own name. I thought that test was long gone.

#163

That said, differences of some older stuff was probably possible given certain conditions. But differences, if any, were so small IMO that they can be ignored (in that case, a bit noise around a very sharp transient at very high volume, not present on the other CD-player). Modern DACs and CD-players? Forget it. IMO.

 

[akosinskiy]

I do not want to make fun of you, it would be rude, and I KNOW that you really think you have heard those differences, you are in absolute good faith, and therefore I ask you to perform a blind test done according to the canons of the video that was linked to you, and tell us your results.

I would love to. But if you read my original post the amp and DAC are gone, it was in home demo. When (if?) I get enough cash to buy the amp I will do everything what this group wants me to test. If someone lives in GTA they would be more than welcome to hear it themselves

 

[akosinskiy]

The amp is easy enough to believe. The DAC less so though knowing the DACS would be good.

Otherwise sighted listening simply won't get the job done. The difference has to be very large to be heard that way. Chances are much , much greater the difference is not really there in a form you can hear.

Did you meticulously match levels with a voltmeter at all times? That's step one even sighted.

Good that someone here believes in amps. I was not. As for DAC comparison. My NAD has volume control so I could adjust it. Didn't use voltmeter, sorry. But even if I raised volume level in my DAC it couldn't help with what we were hearing

 

[FrantzM]

The issue in that is that any decent DAC uncolored from maybe $100 and up sounds the same as any other decent uncolored DAC.

I'd go as low as $9.95.. Apple dongle...

 

[Killingbeans]

Didn't use voltmeter, sorry. But even if I raised volume level in my DAC it couldn't help with what we were hearing

I wouldn't be surprised if some gear actually sounds different, but I would be genuinely surprised if that difference ultimately translated into a greater approximation of "wire with gain". A bit higher volume gives the illusion of overall goodness, yes. But there's more tricks in the book. An elevated treble for instance, can give the illusion of more nuance and detail.

If the DACs has (roughly) the same output impedance, the same flat frequency response and the same output amplitude within -0.1dB, there really shouldn't be any obvious difference to hear. Assuming none of them is dishing out copious amounts of noise and distortion.

 

[akosinskiy]

An elevated treble for instance, can give the illusion of more nuance and detail.

Good discussion. What can create an illusion of wider and deeper soundstage?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Good that someone here believes in amps. I was not. As for DAC comparison. My NAD has volume control so I could adjust it. Didn't use voltmeter, sorry. But even if I raised volume level in my DAC it couldn't help with what we were hearing

@akosinskiy

For any useful listening comparison precise level matching is job #1. If you didn't do that, FULL STOP. The results aren't worth the time it took you to post about them.

Not trying to single you out. Level matching by ear is usually no better than .5 db before it sounds matched. A level difference larger than .1 db is enough to make one device sound better or worse even if there are no differences. Using a voltmeter and test signal at the speaker leads is the best way. Get voltages within 1.2% or better.

I know you heard it, you really did, and I know how fully real it seems. Lots of us have been there. Then match and blind, and all differences completely vanish almost all the time. Even sighted just matching will usually diminish or disappear any differences you were hearing. Level matching is necessary. Without that no matter the resolution or quality of the system you are setting yourself up to fool yourself.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Good discussion. What can create an illusion of wider and deeper soundstage?

.25 db higher level.

 

[akosinskiy]

.25 db higher level.

Ok. I used db meter. But this is not the point. I can purposely increase the volume of the worst unit and it doesn't help. As I said with amp comparison the better amp sounded better with a lower volume (based on db meter again). How about that?