DBX Driverack Venu 360 - initial impressions

[morpheusX]

Anyone knows how this compare to a Monacor DSM48-Lan?
The Monacor is based on the AllDSP PLP428b board, so it should be a good engineered unit.

Unfortunately, there are no reviews of this unit

 

[win]

Is there a "real" interface for this as well, or just the mickey mouse phone/tab wireless junk?

yea, a pc program specific to the venu360. It even has a mode where you can simulate the device, so you could play with it to see the features.

it looks to support profiles..

 

[tadawson]

OK, sounds like DriveWare (noticed recent updates) has been expanded to support this device, as well as all the older ones that already had that level of function.

Likely the more complex functionality would be found there, and not the phone junk . . . these are pretty complex degices, and I can't comprehend full finction in a postage stamp screen . . .

 

[Stoutblock]

I’m looking to see if any of you gurus have insight into my current journey. I have a set of Audio Artistry Beethoven Elite speakers. Great speakers but I have been exploring taking them to the next level with DSP processing. I purchased a miniDSP SHD, a UMIC-2 microphone and installed Dirac Live into my laptop. The SHD has a built in two way crossover, but I did not use it initially and connected the SHD full range to the Audio Artistry Beethoven Elite Active stereo 4 way crossover.

Ran RTA in Dirac Live, developed some filters and was really impressed with the results. Quite impressive actually except for one concern. The RTA showed quite a difference between left and right response at some frequecies. The filters were able to correct some of it but not all of it.

Initially I thought this was just the room but I played with taking new RTA with flipping left and right on the crossover. I was astonished to find most of the difference is cause by the analog crossover itself and not the room. The crossover has all internal adjustments set symmetrical so this should not be occurring. I also ruled out leads, cables and amps. The source of the difference is the crossover.

I could have the analog active crossover rebuilt but I’ve found very little information on it and certainly no circuit diagram is out there that I can find.

Not really knowing what to do with the OEM crossover problems, I decided to pick up a DBX Venu360 which can be configured for a stereo 3 way crossover. I am using the SHD low pass crossover set at 100Hz for the Beethoven subs (OEM setting) and high pass goes to the DBX.

I set the DBX crossovers points and slopes the same as the Beethoven OEM settings for the main speakers. The DBX has its own RTA ability which I used along with the DBX wizard to calibrate the EQ for the speakers.

Then I ran Dirac Live on the SHD with subs and mains to get final RTA and room correction filters. I was glad to see the RTA for left and right were much more symmetrical.

The results is very good but still needs some tweeking.

So here is my delima. The DBX is not meant for home audio. The manual and application are very thorough but clearly targeted for the Pro Audio live venue crowd. Mixer input, unity gain, input gain settings, output gain settings, amp attenuators, peak indicators on the amps, etc, etc.

I don’t know shit about these things and the manual is not much help for my application. Right now the input gain is set at +24db and the output gain is set at +12db. This appears to be default.

The PEQ does not seem to be adjusted during the RTA wizard? I think one of you said it is? This I’m sure needs some tweeking to be right. The DBX has a whole bunch of specific pro speakers in memory that can be selected prior to doing RTA and calibration but of course nothing like the Beethovens are included. You have to select custom and set the PEQ manually? Options for each channel (high, middle, low) are frequency, DB gain, and Q. You can also include up to 6 frequency points to adjust on each pair of stereo channel.

All the manual says when you use unknown is to get these setting recommendations from the speaker/driver manufacture. ???

The amp clipping adjustment procedure in the manual is of no use to me with these home audio amps?

The current setup sounds pretty good but I am keeping the volume low until I know what I am doing. I do not want to destroy my drivers or amps!

My current amps are (4) stereo Classe CA-100 A/B and I’m using the SHD for volume control. Per miniDSP recommendations I have the SHD volume no higher than -10db to retain room for its DSP corrections.

Anyone out there been here before? I am just a grasshopper so be nice...

 

[win]

I would recommend reading the entire venu360 manual thoroughly as it is actually pretty good.

I also found that the venu360 auto correction is a bit ambitious. I preferred to do it manually with REW. There are several stages you can EQ within the venu360. You can do per channel (to correct for speakers) or per input (to apply listening curve) or output (to correct room).

It's very flexible. FWIW I EQ'd my subs first using multi-sub optimizer. Then fiddled with crossover settings by ear to get a smooth integration. Then ran Dirac live on the SHD as the final step, and for that I did not let Dirac optimize frequency response, only time domain.

I spent a lot of time configuring the venu360 so if you have any specific questions let me know!

 

[Stoutblock]

I would recommend reading the entire venu360 manual thoroughly as it is actually pretty good.

I also found that the venu360 auto correction is a bit ambitious. I preferred to do it manually with REW. There are several stages you can EQ within the venu360. You can do per channel (to correct for speakers) or per input (to apply listening curve) or output (to correct room).

It's very flexible. FWIW I EQ'd my subs first using multi-sub optimizer. Then fiddled with crossover settings by ear to get a smooth integration. Then ran Dirac live on the SHD as the final step, and for that I did not let Dirac optimize frequency response, only time domain.

I spent a lot of time configuring the venu360 so if you have any specific questions let me know!

Thanks a lot! Makes me feel a little more comfortable with what I am doing. Although the Beethovens have (2) separate enclosures for the (8) 12” woofers, Linkwitz did not call these subs as he considered them to managed as part of a full range set of stereo speakers. They are suppose to be directly beside the main speakers. They easily go down to 20 hz.

I do have two specific questions:

What about input gain and output gain setting to get the most headroom? I know when I ran the RTA wizard it requested me to turn up the gain on a few channels of amp, which of course my amps don’t have adjustable gain. So I had to skip these few requests. I assume the auto EQ tried to correct it as the results were not too bad.

Also, so the RTA wizard does adjust PEQ? When I look at PEQ settings I don’t see much done? Should I manually key in the Q numbers for my drivers? I’m probably all wet here?

Yes, I have read the manual several times now. I understand a lot of the basics but some new pro audio terms for me.

 

[tadawson]

Home or pro makes no difference . . . the devices are designed for upstream volume control - either from an FOH mixer in live, or whatever preamp is upstream in home use. To that end, about the only diff home to live is who is in front of the system. Set input gain so that input level is just shy of peaking sending the *hottest* signal you anticipate sending, and match output levels and amp input gain to give the corresponding level in the room. The goal being to use the largest about of the resolution of the A to D in the unit, without overdriving it going in, and setting output levels on the back end to be well above the noise floor of the output and the amp preamps. Ultimately, if you already have a gain structure in place, this will likely result in settings that result in the Drive Rack looking like nothing more than frequency selective wire. Can't say that I am famlliar with your sub setup, but myself, I would cross the subs on the Driverack as well to ensure that appropriately matched crossover profiles are applied to the sub vs mid crossover, and insert any other sub processing you may still desire between the DriveRack and the associated sub amp. (Also note that a separate sub crossover than the D/R prevents you from using the subharmonic synth in the D/R, should you have an interest.) Remember: this is a DSP crossover, and *NOT* a preamp, and treat it accordingly, and you should be fine. You don't control volume in an analog crossover, and this really isn't any different.

On eq, on pro stuff, the PEQ is tyoically done to address bumps in the native response of the system (typically provided by the system mfg) and the GEQ is used for rom tuning, but it isn't a hard rule, or exclusively. Myself, in all cases, I tend tomuse PEQ to take out bumps in the device response, and GEQ for the system to eq flat in the near field. (Don't want that argument here . . . out of context). With the system tuned to flat, I then do room/taste/etc. tuning upstream. (This is more in the live case where spaces change - you can put your specific room setup in the GEQ as well, if desired).

Oh, and while there is no "right" way, If reasonably close, I tend to set all amps to the same level, and make specific balance changes in the D/R outputs. Amps are more likely to get accidentally changed than a DSP setting, and are easier to "put back" if all are the same.

If you have kids (or others) prone to abusing the system, set all amps at full up, match the D/R to give the correct max output, and set limiters in the D/R capping the output at a safe level. This way, if itchy fingers want to turn it ip, they will find no more control range to do so (I do this at my church on the systems in youth areas . . . beats the heck out of changing diaphragms/drivers in the air!!!)

Oh, and I have really never found use for the auto eq in the Driverack due to it's limitations. Myself, I use SMAART and can do a lot more - phase and time alignment, multiple sample points . . . It also can send it's own test signals (impule for time alignment), and loops it's reference channel back via the interface in use, thus removing any artifacts due to the interface, and can also give you a transfer function of the system running live program. (REW does a lot of this without the price tag, just had a SMASRT license first . . ). Tuned up some very high end floor monitors with SMAART and a DriveRack, and it was amazing how much time alignment cleaned up the crossover points.

 

[Stoutblock]

^^^ Thanks for the advice ^^^

So based on what you are saying. I assume I run some 0db (+4dbV) Pink Noise into the SHD (which is my preamp). I set the SHD to -10db (which is the maximum recommended level to leave enough range for DSP corrections in the SHD itself) then I adjust the input gain on the DBX until the peak indicators light up, and then turn it down a bit?

My amplifiers by themselves do not have adjustable gain or attenuation. They are fixed at 29db gain (Classe CA-100). It sounds like I should adjust the outputs by leaving the inputs on near peak and then turn up the outputs until the amps are as loud as I would ever run them in this system? Then adjust the output peak indicator to be just below peak? This would give me the most usable headroom?

Man I would really like to use the Venu360 for my subs but I would need a stereo 4 way crossover and it only has a 3 way. The Beethovens are 4 way speakers with no passive crossover and require 4 channels each of discrete amplification and processing. That is why I am using the SHD 2 way crossover for the subs. The SHD is the 4th crossover I need.

Right now I am just making sure I have decent sound and not doing something stupid that will wipe out a driver or an amp. Over the coming years I’m sure I will go down many bunny trails of learning more about this aspect of audio including playing with REW and more powerful (and dangerous) tools.

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[tadawson]

I just read the doc for this unit . . . a bit different than my 260's. . . instead of internal jumpers, looks like there are now analog signal level settings in the Utility menus, and it looks like you can get close, but not all the wwy to consumer -10 levels. Set the lowest input and output level available, and see where you end up on imput with the test signal you mentioned. You should be OK, but I doubt you will be able to get close to clipping/full input. Set out as low as you can - hopefully you won't have to lower output levels too much, since there is a risk or overdriving your amps, since the 360 is designed for pro (+4 and up) level devices. Worst case, might need to pad between the 360 and your amps. Note that it appears that the signal level settings are not gains, but expected/desired signal levels, which mames them seem a bit backward.

 

[win]

I set the SHD to -10db

No, set it to 0.

Man I would really like to use the Venu360 for my subs but I would need a stereo 4 way crossover and it only has a 3 way. The Beethovens are 4 way speakers with no passive crossover and require 4 channels each of discrete amplification and processing. That is why I am using the SHD 2 way crossover for the subs. The SHD is the 4th crossover I need.

You could use a pair of analog outs from SHD for one pair of channels, then use the digital out of the SHD straight into the venu360 to configure the other 6 channels. You can set delays appropriately to counteract any signal processing delay the venu360 will add.

 

[tadawson]

Didn't realize his DSP could output AES/EBU (most consumer gear can't), but if it can, that handles the input side. Use the analog to the sub amp, and the AES/EBU to the 360 . . . input levels become a non-issue!

 

[Stoutblock]

No, set it to 0.

You could use a pair of analog outs from SHD for one pair of channels, then use the digital out of the SHD straight into the venu360 to configure the other 6 channels. You can set delays appropriately to counteract any signal processing delay the venu360 will add.

The SHD digital out is SPDIF RCA while the Venu360 has AES XLR digital input. I have heard conflicting information on what it takes to convert this signal. Some say just a 110 ohm cable with RCA on one end and XLR on the other (wired correctly of course). Some say you need a converter box?

The SHD user group is pretty clear you need to not go beyond -10 db if using correction filters as they need room on top of the base volume prior to the SHD clipping. If I use digital output on the SHD do I not need to worry about this?

 

[win]

The SHD digital out is SPDIF RCA while the Venu360 has AES XLR digital input. I have heard conflicting information on what it takes to convert this signal. Some say just a 110 ohm cable with RCA on one end and XLR on the other (wired correctly of course). Some say you need a converter box?

You need a converter box. The case you mentioned is for analog signals. They should be available for very cheap.

on the -10 db thing, you would want to leave your shd at a maximum db based on your maximum eq boosts. Simulating the max output, you can just run 0db without EQ when you set your gain stages. The 0db (without eq) would sufficiently allow you to gain stage correctly.

 

[win]

If I use digital output on the SHD do I not need to worry about this?

its the same situation as the analog out. You never want digital clipping, obviously. Whether using the digital out or the analog out, both are contingent on the digital source (which would include your EQ boosts) not clipping.

 

[Stoutblock]

You need a converter box.

Something like this with a BNC/RCA adapter?

https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/naditbnc-mx

 

[Stoutblock]

You could use a pair of analog outs from SHD for one pair of channels, then use the digital out of the SHD straight into the venu360 to configure the other 6 channels. You can set delays appropriately to counteract any signal processing delay the venu360 will add.

That is basically what I have done. I am using the SHD analog out channel 3 and 4 directly into my amp for the two stereo subs. LP and HP set at 100Hz on the SHD crossover per Beethoven specifications. I am using 24db slopes as Linkwitz did not publish the slopes on this crossover that I can find. I use analog channels 1 and 2 on the SHD into the Venu360 analog channels 1 and 2. I am not using the digital out on the SHD to the Venu360 yet as I need something to convert SPDIF RCA to AES XLR (per above note).

With channels 1 and 2 muted, I use Dirac Live on the SHD to do some sub frequency RTA from the listening location but I don’t load filters. Instead I go back into the SHD app and use PEQ on channels 3 and 4 to take out a few spikes. This took about a half dozen tries but I got the bass well under control and then stored this sub correction in all four locations in the SHD.

Then I set the crossovers on the Venu360 at the same specifications published on the Beethovens. The woofer HP is set at 100Hz and LP is set at 400Hz. Linkwitz did not publish the slope on this crossover point so I again used 24db Linkwitz (seemed appropriate). The midrange HP is set at 400Hz and LP at 1.4KHz. Linkwitz published a specification of 6db slope on this crossover but that seems extremely shallow? At 6db slope the midrange covers a lot of ground. The tweeter HP is set at 1.4KHz with the published slope of 24db.

I run AutoEQ Wizard on the Venu360 per the 4 locations in the manual (not from the listening location). I use the flat setting for the correction target (I change to more bass emphasis later with Dirac in the SHD). During the level test the Wizard says the HF amplifiers and LF amplifiers need turned up 5db. My amps don’t have any gain or attenuation adjustments so I turnoff the wizard and go into the untility function and set outputs on these four channels from the default of +12db to +17db. I leave the midrange channels at +12db. When I rerun the Level Wizard it seems to fix this.

Once the AutoEQ is complete, I save these adjustments into the Venu360. I believe the save setting on the app is exactly opposite of what is should be? You have two choices, one to save current settings from the app to the Venu360, the other is to load settings from the Venu360 to the app. This last option is the one you actually have to use to save settings to the Venu360. I believe this is an error in the app GUI?

Then I return to the SHD and run Dirac Live on all four channels from the listening position. I move the target up in the bass region and reduce the top end of the trebble a little per personal preference.

This actually sound really good at this point. I’m not sure if Direc Live corrects phasing or timing for the whole frequency range for this final SHD adjustment or if I need to test and adjust for these in AutoEQ with the Venu360?

I am considering using the SHD channels 3 and 4 for the tweeters instead of the subs. Then use SHD channels 1 and 2 for the sub, woofer and midrange. This would allow me to use the sub synth in the Venu360.

I am sure to tweak things more, probably play with the slopes? For right now I am just listening to some music as it sounds really good!

Thanks guys, your input has really helped!

 

[Deleted member 2944]

I don't believe the Beethoven Elite system used any crossovers at 24db/octave other than tweeter/mid. So, setting all the low frequency crossovers to 24db/octave might be causing issues regarding the wiring polarity of the drivers and possibly other issues as well.
If you like, I can test your Beethoven crossover and characterize the response exactly and also troubleshoot the left/right issue you seem to be having.

What you appear to be doing now is re-engineering the system considerably. I don't know how successful you will be doing that. The Beethoven-Elite system is a highly customized setup regards the active crossover.

Dave.

 

[Stoutblock]

I don't believe the Beethoven Elite system used any crossovers at 24db/octave other than tweeter/mid. So, setting all the low frequency crossovers to 24db/octave might be causing issues regarding the wiring polarity of the drivers and possibly other issues as well.
If you like, I can test your Beethoven crossover and characterize the response exactly and also troubleshoot the left/right issue you seem to be having.

What you appear to be doing now is re-engineering the system considerably. I don't know how successful you will be doing that. The Beethoven-Elite system is a highly customized setup regards the active crossover.

Dave.

Great to hear from you Dave! Have you got your vaccinations yet? Hopefully the Governor lets me get my shots early next month?

I would love to have someone who knew what they were doing to checkout this OEM crossover! Maybe I can mask up, cross the bridge and meet you somewhere to let you have it for a bit? I do feel the Venu360 is partially a bandaid solution. Agree the original analog crossover is a bit of a magical device when it worked. I actually think the notes come out a bit more crisp with the Venu360, but with the current settings, some of the 3D magic of the OB Beethovens is missing. Would be really great to get your help!

In the meantime I will change the slopes on the LF Sub area per your recommendation.

Martin

 

[Deleted member 2944]

Yeah, I can meet you halfway somewhere. Maybe Gig Harbor? PM me here or over on my gmail address.

I suspect the crossover slopes of your active crossover are asymmetrical and so changing your Venu360 to lower-slope (but generic) versions would still not be matching the response correctly. There's a whole lot going on in that AA unit besides just the crossover configuration. There's shelves/notches/etc/etc.

Dave.

 

[Stoutblock]

Yeah, I can meet you halfway somewhere. Maybe Gig Harbor? PM me here or over on my gmail address.

I suspect the crossover slopes of your active crossover are asymmetrical and so changing your Venu360 to lower-slope (but generic) versions would still not be matching the response correctly. There's a whole lot going on in that AA unit besides just the crossover configuration. There's shelves/notches/etc/etc.

Dave.

Discussing an analog crossover is certainly off topic for this thread, Email sent.