This is not meant as criticism, but I find that this topic of the DR meter is turning into a war.....and if the end result is that you can compress a song (not in any super-tricky, special way) to get DR score down by 6 points, then struggle to tell them apart / clearly prefer one / hear anything obviously detrimental about the compressed version, then, a 6 point lower DR score is no way to even necessarily be suspicious that the compression itself is detrimental to that version of the song. It could be.... or it could be not.
In which case, the TTDR tool is worse than useless: it is actively deceptive and misleading.
cheers
Grant
the DR meter shows somewhat meaningful numbers for digital material that hasn't been (overly) dynamically compressed.
I think the DR meter was never developed with vinyl in mind, and then because it can be "tricked" by vinyl it has become deceptive when it fell into "the wrong hands" (i.e. vinyl lovers), which was something the developers hadn't anticipated,
Is MAAT DRMeter the same thing as the very simple original algorithm? AFAIK it is not. Does it suffer the same limitations mentioned in this thread? (Serious question, because I don't know).Here is what the developers intended in their own words: “The MAAT DRMeter
Puts me to mind of Wooden Ships.Is there a TLDR of who won?
If you smile at me, I will understand
'Cause that is something everybody everywhere does in the same language
I can see by your coat, my friend, you're from the other side
There's just one thing I got to know
Can you tell me please, who won?
...
Reading your response I see that what I wrote apparently wasn't as clear or precise, or maybe even correct, as I had hoped.Well, if the material hasn’t been overly dynamically compressed, it isn’t part of the audiophile use of the tool, which is primarily to identify material that has been overly dynamically compressed
to distinguish between digital material that has been dynamically compressed and material that hasn't…Wouldn't you say that the DR meter is at least somewhat useful for distinguishing between those two types of material?
I actually originally wrote about the summing of low frequencies or the use of a high-pass filter in my last post, but then decided to delete that part before posting. I wrote that it wasn't relevant, and it actually isn't:@board Thanks for taking the time to read my somewhat rambling post.
It should be, as long as it doesn’t do any of the following:
Unfortunately, it does do both of those. And both the above cases were not edge cases: they were routine things.
- Jump up or down by anything up to 6 points with an action unrelated to dynamics, e.g. blending the L&R bass. (Ian Shepherd demo)
- Provide an inaudible / barely detectable difference, if enough compression is added to produce a 6-point drop in DR. (Your demo)
So…..how can we use it to draw any conclusions about 2 commercial final products that we don’t already own, but see the DR scores on the loudness wars database?
the scenario would only be with digital material, so not material cut to vinyl, and summing of low frequencies and/or the use of a high-pass filter would be something you would only use for cutting vinyl. So it might be routine for cutting vinyl, but not with creating digital material.
About producing an inaudible/barely detectable difference by using heavy compression, it looks to me like you're making the opposite point of what you think you're making. The point of using dynamic range compression is exactly to make it louder (dropping the DR by 6 points as you say), while at the same time making the effect inaudible/barely audible if you lower the volume to match the uncompressed material, but obviously it's completely audible if you don't lower the volume (i.e. it will be louder, which is the point of dynamic range compression).
So, in that way the DR meter works exactly like it's supposed to for that purpose
Yes, that but's not relevant, because we're not talking about how to mix. Also, the original mix is on the CD, whether it's the original master or the remaster. In a remaster the mix hasn't been changed - then it would be a remix.Sure, but deciding on the original L/R mix of bass tracks applies to digital too. If summing L/R bass for vinyl causes DR score to swing, so will the original mix decision.
That's a different topic. You're now talking about how people interpret the numbers the DR meter show, not if the tool actually works. Then your mission shouldn't be to discredit the tool, but rather to educate the people using it.Sure, but if you have compressed by 6 dB and it is inaudible / barely audible (other than loudness), then people shouldn’t be looking at the scores and saying, “oh, that one with the low score is undesirable because it will sound terribly compressed by comparison.” But they do. That’s exactly how they use the tool. Then they get confirmation bias.
And that’s the problem. And it applies to digital vs digital.
cheers
Sure, but deciding on the original L/R mix of bass tracks applies to digital too. If summing L/R bass for vinyl causes DR score to swing, so will the original mix decision.
Sure, but if you have compressed by 6 dB and it is inaudible / barely audible (other than loudness), then people shouldn’t be looking at the scores and saying, “oh, that one with the low score is undesirable because it will sound terribly compressed by comparison.” But they do. That’s exactly how they use the tool. Then they get confirmation bias.
And that’s the problem. And it applies to digital vs digital.
cheers
First, no one should be distracted while driving. Second, it is necessary. One doesn't want overmodulation, and one doesn't want to lose the reach of the signal. So even the good FM stations, like the one I volunteered at, the nation's first listener sponsored station, used the Optimod. I could always hear the pumping on my recordings over the air because my digital recordings were not limited in post production before broadcast. I did use reverb, sometimes EQ, would "pencil" out the more egregious peaks [orchestra music's like that], but never used a compressor or limiter.(Robin might argue that it is necessary, but if I need to gain-ride a classical recording to hear the pp oboe solo in between the loud orchestra tutti sections when listening in the car, I know where my volume knob is.)
Distracted while driving?First, no one should be distracted while driving. Second, it is necessary. One doesn't want overmodulation, and one doesn't want to lose the reach of the signal. So even the good FM stations, like the one I volunteered at, the nation's first listener sponsored station, used the Optimod. I could always hear the pumping on my recordings over the air because my digital recordings were not limited in post production before broadcast. I did use reverb, sometimes EQ, would "pencil" out the more egregious peaks [orchestra music's like that], but never used a compressor or limiter.
TL;DR: All models are false, but some are useful.
But you're in minority on multiple counts. Again, the real concern is for reach, the ability to be clearly audible in the outer reaches of an FCC approved broadcast area. And who's broadcasting Shostakovich these days anyway?Distracted while driving?
Well, then, I can't listen to Shostakovich, or Vaughan Williams, or... they all command attention.
But the volume control? That's two buttons on my steering wheel! I don't even have to take my hands off the wheel to adjust the volume.
Rick "who still listens to classical music over the air--at home--and hears the pumping" Denney
If you stopped listening to FM years ago, then how would you know who is or isn't broadcasting Shostakovich?But you're in minority on multiple counts. Again, the real concern is for reach, the ability to be clearly audible in the outer reaches of an FCC approved broadcast area. And who's broadcasting Shostakovich these days anyway?
Robin "who stopped listening to FM years ago" L
Is that a Toyota T100 I espy or "merely" a Taco? Either way -- nice truckIf you stopped listening to FM years ago, then how would you know who is or isn't broadcasting Shostakovich?
But I listen to a thumb drive in my car, and I'm happy to gain-ride if necessary. But it isn't really necessary, because my car is fairly quiet.
WETA, by the way. They are playing (just the example off the top of my head) Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk in a couple of weeks. But, again, I usually listen to them at home, in the evenings, when I'm doing other things and just want a stream of stuff I might not have heard before.
I built this antenna primarily to receive WETA (also over-the-air television to improve WAF):
Rick "yes, on the fringe--in terms of reception, assuredly" Denney