Experience with separate super-tweeters?

[alex-z]

I came across these standalone tweeters from Aperion, which appear to have positive reviews from audiophile publications: https://www.aperionaudio.com/collec...-motion-ribbon-super-tweeter-speaker-amt-pair. Does anyone here have hands on experience with them, or the ability to explain the theoretical benefits of adding such a unit to decent bookshelves/towers?

There are no benefits. It is rare to hear above 16000Hz once you leave your teenage years, 10000-12000Hz is common for middle age.

Even if you magically have 20kHz hearing, you need to consider the wavelength involved. A super tweeter must be spaced extremely close to the tweeter itself to avoid directivity issues that can degrade imaging, 8000Hz is 4.29cm, and you want less than half wavelength for good integration IMO.

The product you linked is also problematic, because connecting them will also change the overall impedance of the speaker, any super tweeter inclusion should be accounted for in the original crossover design.

 

[tmtomh]

It would seem there are two possibilities:

1. A super-tweeter makes no audible difference.

2. A super-tweeter often does make an audible difference, but that difference is not caused by the super-tweeter's ultrasonic frequency extension. Rather, it's caused by the super-tweeter reinforcing, adding to, and/or interacting with the existing tweeter's response within the sub-20kHz audible range.

My sense is that most of the reports where people hear differences from a super-tweeter are in category #2 rather than #1. As always I am happy to be corrected, but in this particular case my sense is that it's less about confirmation bias and more about misidentification of the actual source/cause of a real difference.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

2. A super-tweeter often does make an audible difference, but that difference is not caused by the super-tweeter's ultrasonic frequency extension. Rather, it's caused by the super-tweeter reinforcing, adding to, and/or interacting with the existing tweeter's response within the sub-20kHz audible range.

Absolutely.

My sense is that most of the reports where people hear differences from a super-tweeter are in category #2 rather than #1. As always I am happy to be corrected, but in this particular case my sense is that it's less about confirmation bias and more about misidentification of the actual source/cause of a real difference.

My tweeters drop off after 10kHz, I need (I think) another 2kHz. past that I am mostly deaf!

 

[hex168]

It may be interesting to see what a super-tweeter does on the Klippel:

Sony SS-CS5 3-way Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sony SS-CS5 3-way bookshelf speaker. Yes, you read that right. It is a 3-way speaker with a mid-range driver in a space where 99% of speakers are 2-way. I purchased it from Amazon for US $149. Bad for me but for those of you shopping for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The review results do not directly apply to an unconventional arrangement such as recommended by dualazmak above, or to ambiance tweeters, but do show directivity and comb filtering of a conventionally applied super-tweeter.

​

 

[FunkeXMix]

So let's say your testing 5 bookshelf speakers. Your favorite has great bass and midrange, but the tweeter roles off too early and has narrow dispersion. Wouldn't it be a sound idea to try a separate super tweeter to widen the dispersion and extension?

Aperion DST Dual Firing AMT Ribbon Super Tweeter Speaker Pair

What is a Super Tweeter speaker? It’s an additional tweeter unit which covers a wide and extended high-frequency response, beyond that of your existing loudspeaker’s integrated tweeters.

www.aperionaudio.com

 

[Andysu]

even star trek mentions ultrasonic , beyond to the dr. wants to render the crew disorientated unconscious but is going far beyond .

. it needs extremely high amplification to hear it ? what may appear say 85dB on spl meter or register easily on RTA doesn't or may mean i could perceive easily it needs to go way , way higher dB to notice it clearly and to a child they may start crying so practice extreme high/freq safely . to my cats it would be extremely an announce as the spl dB to them would or maybe extremely dB unsafe . just as someone places fish tank aquarium in the corner of room of their home theatre . the bass frequencies would be an extreme annoyance to the fish and be extremely harmful .

also mute all other frequency channels in active or dsp crossover . leave the ultra highs playing at say crossover region of -24dB L-R at 15KHz ? to where it would it be extending to beyond 20kHz and you should hear a "tisss , tisss , tisss" or may sound like distortion , (how i know this i can place crossover at 10KHz -24dB to filter off the resr of the sound and unless proper mix sound present ? otherwise it is rather boring to listen that high not much up there) anything but the sound of musical instrument or may try sine wave tone until it totally knackers your hearing with high frequency loss as well as tinnitus , enough to start banging your head against a wall when the hissing inner ear noise won't stop .

online hear test . i use this it shows a clear graph . remember do a test must be done with no background sound noise . better done at nighttime around 1am and in 1 quiet isolated room or make sure any fridge or ac system is switched off . see if you can hear the down to the lowest the hearing test goes -99dB and depends on the freq of the headphones ? once get near to 8KHz it slowly drops off , and needs to be increased just to notice 12KHz or 16KHz . even using the denon avc-x8500h headphone output provides enough signal output than the laptop . also be aware some devices can easily start distorting the sine wave signal near to 16KHz so find good source device or check it on oscilloscope that it is putting out pure clean wave form .

Free hearing test on line – Equal loudness contours and audiometry

This free hearing test on line is an interactive test to produce equal loudness curves or equal loudness congtours.

newt.phys.unsw.edu.au

 

[Andysu]

alien 3 , 1992 Dolby Stereo SR with high frequency reaching up to 18,000KHz during cat scan scene that finds something "horrible" . i have to do special EQ turning to notice the high pitch frequency that pinches my hearing when the scene plays . "pinching" meaning the pressure of the frequency is almost bending my ears , anymore or dB higher it would be painful and most of you lot want to go above 20,000KHz at what levels of say 100dBA or 120dBA to see if you can hear some music or movie on marvel action hero bluray ? good luck . practice wisely and safely unless you want tell us all about your tinnitus experience ?

 

[Andysu]

the truman show (1998) has some high frequency where everyone around reacts, it even pinched my ears as well. i first noticed this at local ABC cinema screen 1, where cinema pa speakers was JBL 4675A with 2360A .

 

[Andysu]

just listening to tiny speakers built-in to the laptop has limited range that i can hear with a open window . the speakers are like 1" oval shape design . maybe amp of 5w or less ? i would have to test it with REW and calibrated microphone to see what that shows ? i know it can't do 12,000KHz with online hearing test . i hear popping/clicking distortion noise so its limit is really about 200Hz to 8,000KHz .

with headphones sennheiser hd559 laptop . pay no attention to 12,000KHz 16,000KHz laptop output isn't that good i hear popping/clicking noise the tone with low level amplifer for the headphones isn't that good . be better on the Sony SDDS D3000 headphone monitor or better on the denon avc-x8500h headphone output .
also the headphones frequency response and range . basic denon 8500h EQ turning down most of the bass frequencies as i can still hear it all . need the smoothness up to the rare higher high frequencies . laptop doesn't have EQ so i can do very little with it .

 

[Andysu]

jones explains the logic of speed with "climatic conditions" so sound would also . i'm going to do a test when i get around to it as seen someone else do a test and found it interesting .

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Final report
I tried a pair of AMT tweeters as additional tweeters. To cut the long story short, it didn't work for me.
I couldn't get them close enough to existing tweeters, and they interacted with each other, so at best they didn't improve the situation, at worst they degraded it.
As a last resort, I got someone to custom cut a piece of self-adhesive vinyl (the type they use in sign-making), to stick on the existing tweeter, obviously with a cut-out for the dome, going all the way to the sides and top of the baffle, in a smooth layout. In my assumption to help with dispersion.
And, by adjusting the legs on the speaker, tilted them a little forward!
At my listening position, I get a lot more high treble past 10kHz, sound is crisper, but midrange and lower treble is unchanged.
I sort of achieved my goal, without super tweeters.
Signing off.

 

[dualazmak]

Looks little people is on this thread, but just for your reference and possible interest...

I recently started a new series of audio experiments; you would please visit my post for the details...
A new series of audio experiments on reflective wide-3D dispersion of super-tweeter sound using random-surface hard-heavy material: Part-1_Background, experimental settings, initial preliminary listening tests #912 on my thread;

Your visit and participation will be much welcome.

Let me copy-past here only two photos from there.

 

[GXAlan]

It would seem there are two possibilities:

1. A super-tweeter makes no audible difference.

2. A super-tweeter often does make an audible difference, but that difference is not caused by the super-tweeter's ultrasonic frequency extension. Rather, it's caused by the super-tweeter reinforcing, adding to, and/or interacting with the existing tweeter's response within the sub-20kHz audible range.

#2 for sure. We know that as you go up in frequency, dispersion narrows. Adding a super tweeter can add both reinforcement and widen the dispersion somewhat. Comb filtering can happen but the Bose 901 experience should have tons of comb filtering but in fact, it sounds spacious. Since most super tweeters involve the buyer playing with position, you end up getting something that sounds great

 

[dualazmak]

#2 for sure. We know that as you go up in frequency, dispersion narrows. Adding a super tweeter can add both reinforcement and widen the dispersion somewhat.

Yes, fully agree with you.

I use FOSTEX super-tweeter (ST) T925A together with YAMAHA Beryllium-dome tweeter (TW) JA-0513, and their Fq coverages are well overlapped, i.e. they sing together, as shown in these two measurement diagrams;

TW JA-0513 has standard wide directivity (as a typical dome tweeter) with normal-high efficiency, while ST T925A has very high efficiency and narrow directivity (as a typical metal horn super-tweeter); this is why I started my new series of experiments on wide-3D reflective dispersion of super-tweeter sound using random-surface hard-heavy material.

For further details, please visit my recent posts #912 and #921 on my thread of DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio system.

 

[JohnnyAudio]

We have several sets of ESS AMT's atop our speakers that add a little more to the sound.
They are driven by a kt88 tube amp and crossover is the DBX 234 active.
Listeners like the added sparkle when we turn them on.

 

[WillBrink]

even star trek mentions ultrasonic , beyond to the dr. wants to render the crew disorientated unconscious but is going far beyond .

. it needs extremely high amplification to hear it ? what may appear say 85dB on spl meter or register easily on RTA doesn't or may mean i could perceive easily it needs to go way , way higher dB to notice it clearly and to a child they may start crying so practice extreme high/freq safely . to my cats it would be extremely an announce as the spl dB to them would or maybe extremely dB unsafe . just as someone places fish tank aquarium in the corner of room of their home theatre . the bass frequencies would be an extreme annoyance to the fish and be extremely harmful .

also mute all other frequency channels in active or dsp crossover . leave the ultra highs playing at say crossover region of -24dB L-R at 15KHz ? to where it would it be extending to beyond 20kHz and you should hear a "tisss , tisss , tisss" or may sound like distortion , (how i know this i can place crossover at 10KHz -24dB to filter off the resr of the sound and unless proper mix sound present ? otherwise it is rather boring to listen that high not much up there) anything but the sound of musical instrument or may try sine wave tone until it totally knackers your hearing with high frequency loss as well as tinnitus , enough to start banging your head against a wall when the hissing inner ear noise won't stop .

online hear test . i use this it shows a clear graph . remember do a test must be done with no background sound noise . better done at nighttime around 1am and in 1 quiet isolated room or make sure any fridge or ac system is switched off . see if you can hear the down to the lowest the hearing test goes -99dB and depends on the freq of the headphones ? once get near to 8KHz it slowly drops off , and needs to be increased just to notice 12KHz or 16KHz . even using the denon avc-x8500h headphone output provides enough signal output than the laptop . also be aware some devices can easily start distorting the sine wave signal near to 16KHz so find good source device or check it on oscilloscope that it is putting out pure clean wave form .

Free hearing test on line – Equal loudness contours and audiometry

This free hearing test on line is an interactive test to produce equal loudness curves or equal loudness congtours.

newt.phys.unsw.edu.au

Thanx for the link. I did the test, but don't see what the test results actually mean. Unless I'm missing it, didn't see how one compares their results to what's base results compared to others for age. I can still hear the 16k, but do have to crank it up to hear it subjectly similar to 1k which I started at 63db.

 

[WillBrink]

I'd be curious to try a FOSTEX super-tweeter for chits and giggles with my ATC SCM 19s. I'm unclear where one sets the cross over to their tweeter that tops out at 20k say.

 

[voodooless]

Also use the search: super tweeters have been subject of several topics already:

Search results for query: Super tweeter

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Gorgonzola]

I not know any decent speaker that goes up less then 20khz. So at least for me i see not the sense. And the integration with another tweeter is imo not trivial. What gives me the feeling, there can go a lot wrong,

At my age, I'm stone deaf above about 9kHz

 

[tomtoo]

At my age, I'm stone deaf above about 9kHz

Not sure if i should give a like. I go up to 14 but not know how much more level i need compared to 1. But 20 are at least for me as far away as saturn.