Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[USER]

I see people say things like corrected response to TRS-1007. What is actually done then?. Is it an eq or mathematical manipulation ,and what is actually done with the original wav file?

Up until now it has only been me and I have posted about it numerous times, including here. But this is in terms of CA-TRS-1007 as there are no "official" JVC TRS-1007 measurements on this thread or website, only works in progress. Correcting for the latter is impossible for everyone except for one person at this point.

As I have done before, I ask that people refrain from correcting measurements on this thread. (Of course, the few in the position to be able to do so know who they are.) The reason I have done so is because I have measured and compared many cartridges on the actual test records themselves, have sorted through multiple copies of the test records, and have a lot of experience with measurements. As you know, I have taken hundreds and hundreds of them. More, everything was done on the same set-up and with no RIAA equalization and thus guaranteed accuracy in that regard. I'm not saying I have not made mistakes but, most important of all, I have documented my comparisons and experiments in public on the script thread.

And the following is the level of scrutiny that I am talking about and examples of what I have sorted through (as I mention on page 1). Bad and good batches of CBS STR-100. Having one copy of each test record is no basis for creating a correction (that I now offer as a supplement and do not claim to be perfect).

So I ask others to be judicious, follow the instructions on the first page closely, and use only the test records that the script is made for, right now JVC-TRS-1007, CA-TRS-1007, and CBS STR-100 (Issue 3). They are the only dependable test records for this project. It would be best for anyone interested to go through the script thread carefully so that they better understand the process and any questions that remain. Everyone is most welcome to experiment with other test records and post results and discuss it on the script thread. It would only help and we are truly curious about them. But we want accurate results on this thread. If it becomes the Wild West the entire project will collapse.

 

[JP]

Victor X-1IIE

This is an NOS example. I'll likely play with loading a bit more later and update this post.

Translated from the owner's manual:

• Laminated core
• Samarium cobalt magnet
• One-point suspension
• Tapered titanium pipe cantilever
• 0.15mm square shank elliptical (0.3x0.7mil)
• Die-cast magnesium body

This is the factory plot from this same cartridge. I get similar response if I load it at 105pF.

 

[USER]

Oh wow. Looks like some heavyweight champions are visiting us soon. Very apt first official JVC TRS-1007 post. That's crazy good crosstalk. The best we have seen here?

Is that a new plot style? I like it! A lot. Glad you are warming up to the close-up.

 

[morillon]

qr-2009...45tr

 

[JP]

Oh wow. Looks like some heavyweight champions are visiting us soon. Very apt first official JVC TRS-1007 post. That's crazy good crosstalk. The best we have seen here?

Is that a new plot style? I like it! A lot. Glad you are warming up to the close-up.

Some version of this may become style 4. I still prefer style 2 if the amplitude major scale is 5dB, but at 10dB the details get lost.

 

[davidc]

emocratizing

Shure V15 Type V xMR with original Shure Beryllium stylus

View attachment 300095

This is running through my Yamaha CX-A5100 phono input, an 11.2 channel AV processor. I used the pre-out at +0 dB in Pure Direct Mode.
I am not the original owner of the turntable or cartridge.

• CBS STR-100 found off eBay. It has a lot of surface noise and pops even though it visually looks clean. Warping is easily seen in the recordings.
• Sony PS-X555ES Biotracer Linear Tracking Turntable
• 1.5 grams with the brush enabled (so ~1 gm actual tracking)

Since this is the original beryllium stylus, it has to be stiff/worn. Nonetheless, this is a great result which really shows the "transparency" of the Shure V15 VxMR and at least the general quality of my CBS STR-100. This is used in my home theater room, so it's using a run-of-the-mill Yamaha AV processor which is officially graded as +/- 0.5 dB for RIAA accuracy.

The channel imbalance is about 1 to 1.5 dB. That seems to be what someone else reported too!

Azimuth again! and Channel balance.- Vinyl Engine

www.vinylengine.com

I have this combonation as well. I originally purchased back in the 1980's? I found that when trying to play some warped records, using the Biotracer arm along with the damping brush on the V15 resulted in far over damped action whereby the arm/cartridge just floated over the warps. The arm would move up as the warp advanced and as the warp went down, the arm stayed in the air and lost contact with the record.

Have you tried you combo on various highly warped records?

 

[Thomas_A]

we

Victor X-1IIE

This is an NOS example. I'll likely play with loading a bit more later and update this post.

View attachment 323954

Translated from the owner's manual:

• Laminated core
• Samarium cobalt magnet
• One-point suspension
• Tapered titanium pipe cantilever
• 0.15mm square shank elliptical (0.3x0.7mil)
• Die-cast magnesium body

This is the factory plot from this same cartridge. I get similar response if I load it at 105pF.

View attachment 323960

View attachment 323961

i would try 250 pF 40-42 kOhm.

Edit. Cantilever in tube titanium - was that common among high-end stylii at the time? Boron and beryllium tubes were but titanium? I just wonder if anyone would ever make tubes of another material than aluminium again.

 

[USER]

we

i would try 250 pF 40-42 kOhm.

Edit. Cantilever in tube titanium - was that common among high-end stylii at the time? Boron and beryllium tubes were but titanium? I just wonder if anyone would ever make tubes of another material than aluminium again.

The Pioneer posted a while back also has a titanium cantilever. The Sony XL-30 and upcoming XL-45 have "carbon clad" (aloy) cantilevers. So companies were definitely playing with materials in the late 1970s. Interestingly the ones I mention were not the highest end cartridges but a step below that, with the top Pioneer having a beryllium cantilever and the Sony having a diamond (!) cantilever I believe. Those days are long gone I think as it's mostly a cash grab now. Though Audio-Technica does use some sort of carbon fiber filament infused plastic on its lowest end models, which is interesting but not for the same goals as the aforementioned materials like trackibility.

I think audiophiles are still responding to ruby and sapphire cantilevers likes moths to a light, so they are kept busy. But man...

But if there is any else super interesting thing out there I'm sure JP will be posting it! Exciting times ahead.

 

[Thomas_A]

The Pioneer posted a while back also has a titanium cantilever. The Sony XL-30 and upcoming XL-45 have "carbon clad" (aloy) cantilevers. So companies were definitely playing with materials in the late 1970s. Interestingly the ones I mention were not the highest end cartridges but a step below that, with the top Pioneer having a beryllium cantilever and the Sony having a diamond (!) cantilever I believe. Those days are long gone I think as it's mostly a cash grab now. Though Audio-Technica does use some sort of carbon fiber filament infused plastic on its lowest end models, which is interesting but not for the same goals as the aforementioned materials like trackibility.

View attachment 324169

I think audiophiles are still responding to ruby and sapphire cantilevers likes moths to a light, so they are kept busy. But man...

View attachment 324182
But if there is any else super interesting thing out there I'm sure JP will be posting it! Exciting times ahead.

Yes the modern ones play with rods where sapphire is one of the worst if you want to follow the standard loading. I had SAS ruby that broke due to bad fitness of the stylus to the body and I don't think I ever got any measurements from it. They need 10-30 kOhm to tame the upper end.

It seems that there is only one major producer of cantilevers and stylii today.

Stylus Cantilever for Analog Record | Orbray Co., Ltd.

 

[JP]

Victor Super Direct Couple MC-L1000

This is an NOS example. The right channel performance matches well with the factory plot. The left channel situation is disappointing.

*EDIT 10 Nov: corrected equipment info line.

*TRS-1005 plot removed.

• Micro-Ridge stylus
• Tapered beryllium cantilever
• 0.35mg effective tip mass
• Very heavy cartridge at 10.5g

 

[USER]

Do you adjust azimuth to the test record? The way the channels are almost perfectly skewed away from each other (here the left channel starting lower and ending higher) hints (for me) at azimuth being off, at least for the purposes of the measurements. I think you should try bringing down the right side and get the results to balance on the TRS-1005 and then try again to see what happens with TRS-1007.

I believe I've seen this with a VM95ML that you posted previously and that I have measured as well. I adjusted to the test record and did not see the discrepancy. I'm not saying you aren't setting up correctly as I have all sorts of questions regarding azimuth adjustment and test records (and with that individual records) these days. Plus it can always be something like the diamond being off in some way.

 

[JP]

Adjustments didn’t affect it at all.

 

[dlaloum]

I have this combonation as well. I originally purchased back in the 1980's? I found that when trying to play some warped records, using the Biotracer arm along with the damping brush on the V15 resulted in far over damped action whereby the arm/cartridge just floated over the warps. The arm would move up as the warp advanced and as the warp went down, the arm stayed in the air and lost contact with the record.

Have you tried you combo on various highly warped records?

Over damping can be an issue regardless of the mechanism used - most electronically damped arms have an adjustment that can be used to increase / decrease the damping level - and the total damping needs to take into account both the arm and the brush (if you have a cartridge with a damping brush...)

 

[USER]

Over damping can be an issue regardless of the mechanism used - most electronically damped arms have an adjustment that can be used to increase / decrease the damping level - and the total damping needs to take into account both the arm and the brush (if you have a cartridge with a damping brush...)

Absolutely. Plus you have to make sure the damping is set to the recommended force at the stylus tip, not necessarily the recommended "tracking force" (a separate adjustment on Denon servo tonearms), as these are different for cartridges with brushes. For the Shure V15 V-MR this means Q-damping is set to 1g if the tracking force is set to 1.5g to account for the brush. So it is possible to over-dampen a cartridge this way. Could severely warped records exacerbate things? Probably. But I myself don't play such records so I have no way of knowing. It seems like asking for trouble to me. And if the record was important, I'd flatten it as much as I could and digitize it.

 

[dlaloum]

Absolutely. Plus you have to make sure the damping is set to the recommended force at the stylus tip, not necessarily the recommended "tracking force" (a separate adjustment on Denon servo tonearms), as these are different for cartridges with brushes. For the Shure V15 V-MR this means Q-damping is set to 1g if the tracking force is set to 1.5g to account for the brush. So it is possible to over-dampen a cartridge this way. Could severely warped records exacerbate things? Probably. But I myself don't play such records so I have no way of knowing. It seems like asking for trouble to me. And if the record was important, I'd flatten it as much as I could and digitize it.

In a TT with an electro damped arm (I have a JVC QL-Y5F) I prefer not to use the brush at all... just clip it up out of the way, and then use the arm's Q damping and VTF settings to adjust properly for the cartridge/stylus.

In a more manual TT, yes, you need to take into account the brush in calculating the VTF.

BUT - if you are using a non OEM replacement stylus, the damping effect is DIFFERENT - I tested the Jico replacement styli with their brush, their damping effect is almost non-existent (it was measurable but very minor) - and the impact on tracking force is around 0.25g and not the 0.5g that the original stylus had.... so caveat emptor...

 

[USER]

Denon DL-103R
Low-mass and high-mass tonearms and possible cap mod effect
Click to increase size

Note that for the supplemental measurements I accidentally left on an 80Hz subwoofer high-pass crossover filter. Oops. Also note that for the official measurement TRS-1005 dips above 1kHz compared to TRS-1007 so the result appears less bright than it actually is. (See JP's measurements above.) I wonder if Denon tuned their cartridges to it. (Or if they deliberately used it to make their cartridges look more flat.)

are.

Notes

• This is an old measurement that I forgot I had taken
  • The cartridge is long gone so I can't measure it on a higher-mass tonearm to my current standards
• The second set has FR corrected to my CA-TRS-1007
• 100+ hours on the conical stylus with aluminum cantilever
• Azimuth is off a bit (left and right FR not parallel)
  • Channel balance likely looks a bit worse than it actually is
• What is interesting is the dip right after 10kHz
  • It is visible on the other measurement but rather strong here
  • There are many reasons for the other discrepancies at the highest frequencies
    • Including phono stage RIAA, test record warping, azimuth adjustment, etc.
• We see this type of dip from time to time (including 2 upcoming ones from different companies)
  • It seems to be organic to the cartridge performance
  • Is it only found on MC cartridges?
    • I am not an MC connoisseur so I don't know if this is normal for some
• I provided supplemental higher-mass tonearm and "cap mod" measurements
  • But note the different turntables, phono stage, test record, loading, and setting, so use discretion
• There is a lot of forum chatter about the very limited tonearm compatibility of this cartridge
  • But the lowest frequencies don't show any evidence of mismatch resonance!
• One question: did the cap mod help out with the dip?
  • Inconclusive given all the variable changes and small difference
  • The Clearaudio Satisfy Carbon Fiber is a low-mass tonearm
• While I'm personally not a fan of the cartridge, I wish I kept it for the sake of measurements
  • I would like to determine if the cap makes a difference (not necessarily audible) and/or if that dip can be mitigated better
  • With the question being if it is caused by the notoriously light (and supposedly resonant) body

 

[aaaakkkk]

I don't have an AT-ML150, but I do have an AT-ML170

CA-TRS-1007

 

[USER]

WOAH. That Clearaudio test record arrived quickly. It looks to be a good copy. Any warping?

You should try the recommended tracking force of 1.25g. I wonder if the FR would balance out with that. Given the age, 1g may not be good for it. Because that is an interesting FR and rare cart, can you show us the "plot style 3" result as well? Loading settings (capacitance, resistance) would be extremely helpful for us to understand the result.

Also, would you mind "inserting" the full image of the graphs on your post and adding "Audio-Technica AT-ML170" to the post text so that it is more easily found by search?

Very cool measurement!

 

[aaaakkkk]

Delivered in three days instead of two, there is a slight rocking of the cartridge up and down. I'll try to make it 1.25g.

 

[USER]

And just because everyone seems to be very humble here, this page has 3 extremely rare and high-end cartridge measurements. (Not the Denon L-103R though, lol!) These were seriously well-engineered cartridges for their time.

Look up how much the Victor Laboratory MC-L1000 is going for in used and likely worn out condition!

The AT-ML170 has a microline stylus and boron cantilever.