I seem to sniff a bit of an inverse relationship between population growth and GDP per capita, along with wealth, however that one was calculated...
Economics is not a science. It is merely the study of human behavior.
Your thesis is that American manufacturers have lost something when it comes to audio. Your evidence is an unrelated journal paper from a journal which has nothing to do with audio or electronics. It's your thread. I've given evidence to the contrary and invited you to review the AES journal which supports my view that your thesis is merely a reflection of your personal beliefs. You've not even responded. Thanks for the guidance on what I'm allowed to say on this thread but I still haven't heard a response from you.
I take it this thread is just your personal screed against the U.S.
Then I go on and ask if what we've seen in American industry as a whole may be applicable, relevant for the audio industry as well. I think this question is relevant even if it's an inconvenient question. Hence my question if America has lost its leading position in audio.
I'm never keen on this idea of trashing arguments just because of who is making them. Are the arguments in the report sound or not? If they are so weak that they can only be justified on the grounds of who is making them, they are not worth very much. But if they are strong, it doesn't matter who is making them.P.S. The PIE report group is underwritten by Lockheed Martin, who vary much have a vested interest in advocating for the importance of domestic manufacturing as part of the military industrial complex.
I'm never keen on this idea of trashing arguments just because of who is making them. Are the arguments in the report sound or not? If they are so weak that they can only be justified on the grounds of who is making them, they are not worth very much. But if they are strong, it doesn't matter who is making them.
Agreed. Interestingly, one area where US R &D plus manufacturing has a huge and growing advantage over the rest of the world unlikely to ever be overtaken is offensive and defensive weaponry. Not surprising given the huge sums we perpetually spend on it.Who cares about audio?
It's a mature industry, and a miniscule portion of the economy. Most of the important discoveries are decades old. It's all about incremental improvements now.
I really don't care what country makes the audio products I choose to buy, as long as they're high quality. They're just consumer goods. They're a miniscule portion of the economy.They're not very important to the advancement of human society, as opposed to advances in energy, AI, or health, for instance.
I'd much rather have US engineers working on things that matter like quantum computing, instead of getting really good at building a better woofer. Let the Scandinavians dominate the high-end driver market, just like the Swiss have watches.
P.S. The PIE report group is underwritten by Lockheed Martin, who very much have a vested interest in advocating for the importance of domestic manufacturing as part of the military industrial complex.
I didn't say the arguments weren't sound.
But this report has existed in various forms (updately frequently), including the book mentioned, since I was in college in the early 1990s. It has a perspective that aligns with the business and political interests of the sponsors, namely that manufacturing is of outsized importance to an economy (as opposed to financial or technology services, agriculture, health care, entertainment, tourism, etc). It's something to be aware of, much like medical papers sponsored by pharmaceutical companies, food companies or, once upon a time, tobacco companies.
Your line of reasoning makes the books of Floyd Toole suspect because he worked for Harman when he wrote them. Do Toole’s books just reflect «the business and political interests of the sponsors»?
Many of the articles of AES are written by people working in a company in the audio industry. Should AES articles be discounted as marketing?
U.S. universites receive grants from donors, often big business (financing chairs, institutes, faculties etc.). Does this practice mean that what comes from these professors and schools is just marketing for a certain set of interests?
You are, however, not the only one arguing that the «free market» leads to academic production of little value:
http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo3635035.html
(Professor Mirowski argues that academic value deteriorates when the academic world is reduced to a marketplace for ideas).
I think your way of reasoning is like choosing the easy way out of a debate where you cast doubt over the proponent’s arguments (in this case MIT, which is the world’s most highly regarded university in the hard sciences) instead of discussing the arguments per se.
Dismissing MIT as being in the pockets of Lockheed Martin is a bit extreme in my opinion.
PS: I will continue to use Toole as a source in audio science and not go by your logic and disregard his arguments because he worked for an audio company.
Definitely not lost it as far as manufacturer and innovation of beer goes , even the beer that Was conceptualised in the u.s but made abroad ( like in the uk) is great.You're actually taking it to an extreme.
As I pointed out, I didn't say the arguments are unsound. I said, however, they have a perspective on the importance of manufacturing that aligns with the sponsors and that is far from universally shared amongst economists.
Toole's research, even though sponsored by Harman, has been subjected to peer review and validated - easier to do in the hard sciences. In contrast, the authors of the PIE do not have universal consensus on their studies, it's hard to validate (it's economics), and they have been crying the alarm bell about the death of American innovation since the early 1990s -- when they were proven sharply wrong by the growth of the information age. In fact, they're so wrong that they have to now account for the fact that the IT industry somehow breaks their rules - designed in USA, built elsewhere, seemed to work.
In any case, it's all moot as audio is neither a highly important national industry nor one that is critical to innovate in, which is the real thrust of the PIE report and its predecessors.
As I said earlier, it does't matter if the USA is 'behind' in audio. It's a miniscule slice of the economy, of no particular importance to national security, health, economic growth, or productivity improvements.
In fact, in the spirit of Ricardo's Comparative Advantage, one could argue that a low-value sector like audio is exactly the kind of thing a high labor cost country like the USA should be outsourcing to other countries.
So let's posit that, yes, the USA is "losing it in audio' -- so what if it is?
The USA "lost it" in the manufacture of mechanical watches, too. And it was of no importance.
Definitely not lost it as far as manufacturer and innovation of beer goes , even the beer that Was conceptualised in the u.s but made abroad ( like in the uk) is great.
Does anything else really matter ?? .. no I thought not.
You're actually taking it to an extreme.
As I pointed out, I didn't say the arguments are unsound. I said, however, they have a perspective on the importance of manufacturing that aligns with the sponsors and that is far from universally shared amongst economists.
Toole's research, even though sponsored by Harman, has been subjected to peer review and validated - easier to do in the hard sciences. In contrast, the authors of the PIE do not have universal consensus on their studies, it's hard to validate (it's economics), and they have been crying the alarm bell about the death of American innovation since the early 1990s -- when they were proven sharply wrong by the growth of the information age. In fact, they're so wrong that they have to now account for the fact that the IT industry somehow breaks their rules - designed in USA, built elsewhere, seemed to work.
In any case, it's all moot as audio is neither a highly important national industry nor one that is critical to innovate in, which is the real thrust of the PIE report and its predecessors.
As I said earlier, it does't matter if the USA is 'behind' in audio. It's a miniscule slice of the economy, of no particular importance to national security, health, economic growth, or productivity improvements.
In fact, in the spirit of Ricardo's Comparative Advantage, one could argue that a low-value sector like audio is exactly the kind of thing a high labor cost country like the USA should be outsourcing to other countries.
So let's posit that, yes, the USA is "losing it in audio' -- so what if it is?
The USA "lost it" in the manufacture of mechanical watches, too. And it was of no importance.
I loved the Mumford brewery downtown LA , they have no regular brews he just innovates and brews what he wants. So it's a ever changing menu.It's been interesting to move to Washington, where the number of beers for sale in the stores is no greater than California, but there are far more brewpubs that don't ship at all and have beer menus that change weekly! And growlers to fill and take home.
I will always give you my last square.. promise. ( if your within arms reach)I like chocolate.
Lastly: Your defense of Toole (one person) and critique of MIT (the world's premier school of the hard sciences) seems to me like you pick the facts that suit your case when you base your case on the idea that for example Toole is more trustworthy than MIT.