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JM Audio XTC

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Zoide

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Has anyone here listened to the JM Audio XTC headphones?



They are original creations from John Massaria, who apparently has a very good track record modifying headphones from Kennerton and Hifiman.

He claims to have picked the best beryllium and biowool drivers in the market, plus a number of interesting innovations:

At JM Audio, we prioritize preserving the original signal integrity and avoiding excessive reverb or sound absorption. Our patent-pending multilayer technologies, including JM Fractal Fiberglass Mesh™, JM Fractal Porous Graphene Carbon™, and JM Nautilus Fractal Spiral™, are designed to spread sound naturally and accurately around the user, while maintaining the frequency integrity of the audio recording.
(https://www.jmaudioeditions.com/innovations)

The XTC have some rave reviews on Reddit and Head-Fi, but I know that people are prone to hype, "Flavor of the Month", etc.

So... What do folks think over here on the objectivist, more skeptical side of the hobby?

Thanks
 

NTK

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Their "innovation" web page is total BS. This is one of the pictures from it. Anyone with any basic understanding of acoustics will know these figures do not apply to headphones because headphones are too small and are too close the the ear drums for any of these to happen.

jmaudio.png
 

JMAudio

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The innovations actually are based on real world implementation and designs I invented and pioneered years ago with the GH50JM Edition Headphones (which the manufacture liked so much they actually made it into a global production model called the JM Edition- using scatter technology in the front of the driver). Later on I came up with another idea to use the Fractal Mesh on the front of the Kennerton GH50 JM Edition Mk2 which is only done by me at my shop. And then again latter realized it can be applied to better the stock models of the Kennerton Rognir and The Kennerton Vali (those models of JM Editions never went into production because it uses my proprietary M Fractal Fiberglass Mesh™and JM Fractal Porous Graphene Carbon™ and I didnt want that put into production its too handmade intense to do and very expensive for me and probably wouldn't be practical for manufacturing. Sorry im getting off topic... I modded hundreds of those headphones , people who owned them before and after. People who had both unmodded and modded on hand to directly compare. Like Kennerton. I guess people can hear a difference with scatter technology. I have on numerous occasions had customers that even came to my work shop to compare the differences of with and without my applied innovations. I had sound engineers who mastered hundreds of albums in their life time for huge labels also come and spend 6 hours + with me as we went back and forth between modded and non-modded. Latter, I adopted the technology inside the Hifiman R7 (I set out to make a $99 - $149 headphone like the Hifiman R7DX sound as good if not better than $500+ or more headphones) and Hifiman R9 and R10 (trying to elevate the performance with same technologies) - Many dozens if not hundreds who already owned the originals and compared at the same time another pair modded- and again same conclusions. For a major of ASR contributor to discount years of my work - to called it pseudoscience or as that person said BS is to call all innovations BS that use similar technologies. You think I am the first to use scatter technology? Well actually in headphones I was one of the first if not the first. But others use it too: the DCA Stealth/Expanse with Meta Material, and the ABYSS with porous aluminum - or another well known American Headphone company that uses a similar Back Wave System / Damping System. All headphone companies trying to improve perceived sound while simultaneity preserving the original signal. What just because you say so- its bs ? My work is based work by others who wrote books based on sound back to the 1970's. My work is based on dozens and dozens of papers written by smarter people than me. It's an evolution and process based on proven scattering technologies that now I use in front and in back of the driver.

I really don't want to address or discuss my technologies and other peoples technologies on how they arrived where they arrived and how I arrived - we are all innovating. But when someone calls BS - I had to chime in- when you have read as much as I have since before puberty - applied for patents and work as hard as I do to make things sound better- and then actually have people verify by direct comparison and have other companies adopt your innovations in their production - well I don't know who you are or what headphones you actually manufacture- but I'm sure they are only based on measurements and not theories that translated in to actual practice.

I will not be engaging in back and forth. I will let my customers speak for me. I know if you can't measure it- it never happened. Well I would like to see a measurement of a frequency such as white noise or a test tone convey depth or stage or emotion in headphones. The reason I won't debate or go back and forth is measurements have their place I use them all the time to match drivers and match tunings but they will never ever convey emotional connection with the music or capture musical instruments in 3d space. There is a reason fractals exist in nature. There is a reason our ear is shaped like a Nautilus shell. Like our galaxy, spirals, the golden ratio and fractals like the Mandelbrot set have always interested me since I was 14- I have a few of books on the golden ratio and the fractals - probably 8 or 9 good books I can recommend if you are interested.

Some of the papers I have also used in my research:

The Proceeding of Meetings on Acoustics from the 161st meetings of the Acoustical Society of America. "Numerical Prediction of sound scattering from surfaces with fractal geometry written in 2011."

Reexamining the Mechanical property space of three dimensional lattice architectures







As I said, I'm not here to debate or prove theories based on these papers. I use it in practice- I hand tune each and every single headphone by hand for my customers and try my best to figure out what they want by lengthy conversations with them - which headphones they like and don't like and what equipment they own so I can match that to either a 32ohm, 64ohm or 300 ohm drivers -I am offering a service no one I know of does at any price.

BTW- I offered Amir a chance to TEST: 1 modded R9 Hifiman- 1 non Modded Hifman R9 and another as a control non modded - I litterality sent him 3 headphones to test - you know what Amir did? He sat on them for 7-8 months. By then I already developed three other Versions with improvements because that's what I do is always innovate and try to improve- by then it was pointless to wait a year for a test review from Amir. I know he was busy he kept saying. I get it. So am I. I will let my customers speak for how they hear it and let you measurement people have their debate after I leave. I know if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it did Amir get a SINAD out of it? I love ASR and that's why I sent the R9s for testing. I read Amir's and ASR stuff all the time - I am information junkie. But let me get back to work as you should as well.
 
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NTK

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The innovations actually are based on real world implementation and designs I invented and pioneered years ago with the GH50JM Edition Headphones (which the manufacture liked so much they actually made it into a global production model called the JM Edition- using scatter technology in the front of the driver. Later on i came up with another idea to use the Fractal Mesh on the front of the Kennerton GH50 JM Edition Mk2 which is only done by me at my shop. And then again latter realized it can be applied to better the stock models of the Kennerton Rognir and The Kennerton Vali (those models of JM Editions never went into production because it uses my proprietary M Fractal Fiberglass Mesh™and JM Fractal Porous Graphene Carbon™ and I didnt want that put into production its too handmade intense to do and very expensive for me and probably wouldn't be practical for manufacturing. Sorry im getting off topic... I modded hundreds of those headphones , people who owned them before and after. People who had both unmodded and modded on hand to directly compare. Like Kennerton. I guess people can hear a difference with scatter technology. I have on numerous occasions had customers that even came to my work shop to compare the differences of with and without my applied innovations. I had sound engineers who mastered hundreds of albums in their life time for huge labels also come and spend 6 hours + with me as we went back and forth between modded and non-modded. Latter, I adopted the technology inside the Hifiman R7 (I set out to make a $99 - $149 headphone like the Hifiman R7DX sound as good if not better than $500+ or more headphones) and Hifiman R9 and R10 (trying to elevate the performance with same technologies) - Many dozens if not hundreds who already owned the originals and compared at the same time another pair modded- and again same conclusions. For a major of ASR contributor to discount years of my work - to called it pseudoscience or as that person said BS is to call all innovations BS that use similar technologies. You think I am the first to use scatter technology? Well actually in headphones I was one of the first if not the first. But others use it too: the DCA Stealth/Expanse with Meta Material, and the ABYSS with porous aluminum - or another well known American Headphone company that uses a similar Back Wave System / Damping System. All headphone companies trying to improve perceived sound while simultaneity preserving the original signal. What just because you say so- its bs ? My work is based work by others who wrote books based on sound back to the 1970's. My work is based on dozens and dozens of papers written by smarter people than me. It's an evolution and process based on proven scattering technologies that now I use in front and in back of the driver.

I really don't want to address or discuss my technologies and other peoples technologies on how they arrived where they arrived and how I arrived - we are all innovating. But when someone calls BS - I had to chime in- when you have read as much as I have since before puberty - applied for patents and work as hard as I do to make things sound better- and then actually have people verify by direct comparison and have other companies adopt your innovations in their production - well I don't know who you are or what headphones you actually manufacture- but I'm sure they are only based on measurements and not theories that translated in to actual practice.

I will not be engaging in back and forth. I will let my customers speak for me. I know if you can't measure it- it never happened. Well I would like to see a measurement of a frequency such as white noise or a test tone convey depth or stage or emotion in headphones. The reason I won't debate or go back and forth is measurements have their place I use them all the time to match drivers and match tunings but they will never ever convey emotional connection with the music or capture musical instruments in 3d space. There is a reason fractals exist in nature. There is a reason our ear is shaped like a Nautilus shell. Like our galaxy, spirals, the golden ratio and fractals like the Mandelbrot set have always interested me since I was 14- I have a few of books on the golden ratio and the fractals - probably 8 or 9 good books I can recommend if you are interested.

Some of the papers I have also used in my research:

The Proceeding of Meetings on Acoustics from the 161st meetings of the Acoustical Society of America. "Numerical Prediction of sound scattering from surfaces with fractal geometry written in 2011."

Reexamining the Mechanical property space of three dimensional lattice architectures







As I said, I'm not here to debate or prove theories based on these papers. I use it in practice. I hand tune each and every single headphone by hand for my customers and well it seems like it could be too good to be true - well maybe you should try one of my headphones instead of theorizing.

BTW- I offered Amir a chance to TEST: 1 modded R9 Hifiman- 1 non Modded Hifman R9 and another as a control non modded - I litterality sent him 3 headphones to test - you know what Amir did? He sat on them for 7-8 months. By then I already developed three other Versions with improvements because that's what I do is always innovate and try to improve- by then it was pointless to wait a year for a test review from Amir. I know he was busy he kept saying. I get it. So am I. I will let my customers speak for how they hear it and let you measurement people have their debate after I leave. I know if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it did Amir get a SINAD out of it? I love ASR and that's why I sent the R9s for testing. I read Amir's and ASR stuff all the time - I am information junkie. But let me get back to work as you should as well.
Your response just proved my point :facepalm:
 

Ilkless

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The innovations actually are based on real world implementation and designs I invented and pioneered years ago with the GH50JM Edition Headphones (which the manufacture liked so much they actually made it into a global production model called the JM Edition- using scatter technology in the front of the driver). Later on I came up with another idea to use the Fractal Mesh on the front of the Kennerton GH50 JM Edition Mk2 which is only done by me at my shop. And then again latter realized it can be applied to better the stock models of the Kennerton Rognir and The Kennerton Vali (those models of JM Editions never went into production because it uses my proprietary M Fractal Fiberglass Mesh™and JM Fractal Porous Graphene Carbon™ and I didnt want that put into production its too handmade intense to do and very expensive for me and probably wouldn't be practical for manufacturing. Sorry im getting off topic... I modded hundreds of those headphones , people who owned them before and after. People who had both unmodded and modded on hand to directly compare. Like Kennerton. I guess people can hear a difference with scatter technology. I have on numerous occasions had customers that even came to my work shop to compare the differences of with and without my applied innovations. I had sound engineers who mastered hundreds of albums in their life time for huge labels also come and spend 6 hours + with me as we went back and forth between modded and non-modded. Latter, I adopted the technology inside the Hifiman R7 (I set out to make a $99 - $149 headphone like the Hifiman R7DX sound as good if not better than $500+ or more headphones) and Hifiman R9 and R10 (trying to elevate the performance with same technologies) - Many dozens if not hundreds who already owned the originals and compared at the same time another pair modded- and again same conclusions. For a major of ASR contributor to discount years of my work - to called it pseudoscience or as that person said BS is to call all innovations BS that use similar technologies. You think I am the first to use scatter technology? Well actually in headphones I was one of the first if not the first. But others use it too: the DCA Stealth/Expanse with Meta Material, and the ABYSS with porous aluminum - or another well known American Headphone company that uses a similar Back Wave System / Damping System. All headphone companies trying to improve perceived sound while simultaneity preserving the original signal. What just because you say so- its bs ? My work is based work by others who wrote books based on sound back to the 1970's. My work is based on dozens and dozens of papers written by smarter people than me. It's an evolution and process based on proven scattering technologies that now I use in front and in back of the driver.

I really don't want to address or discuss my technologies and other peoples technologies on how they arrived where they arrived and how I arrived - we are all innovating. But when someone calls BS - I had to chime in- when you have read as much as I have since before puberty - applied for patents and work as hard as I do to make things sound better- and then actually have people verify by direct comparison and have other companies adopt your innovations in their production - well I don't know who you are or what headphones you actually manufacture- but I'm sure they are only based on measurements and not theories that translated in to actual practice.

I will not be engaging in back and forth. I will let my customers speak for me. I know if you can't measure it- it never happened. Well I would like to see a measurement of a frequency such as white noise or a test tone convey depth or stage or emotion in headphones. The reason I won't debate or go back and forth is measurements have their place I use them all the time to match drivers and match tunings but they will never ever convey emotional connection with the music or capture musical instruments in 3d space. There is a reason fractals exist in nature. There is a reason our ear is shaped like a Nautilus shell. Like our galaxy, spirals, the golden ratio and fractals like the Mandelbrot set have always interested me since I was 14- I have a few of books on the golden ratio and the fractals - probably 8 or 9 good books I can recommend if you are interested.

Some of the papers I have also used in my research:

The Proceeding of Meetings on Acoustics from the 161st meetings of the Acoustical Society of America. "Numerical Prediction of sound scattering from surfaces with fractal geometry written in 2011."

Reexamining the Mechanical property space of three dimensional lattice architectures







As I said, I'm not here to debate or prove theories based on these papers. I use it in practice- I hand tune each and every single headphone by hand for my customers and try my best to figure out what they want by lengthy conversations with them - which headphones they like and don't like and what equipment they own so I can match that to either a 32ohm, 64ohm or 300 ohm drivers -I am offering a service no one I know of does at any price.

BTW- I offered Amir a chance to TEST: 1 modded R9 Hifiman- 1 non Modded Hifman R9 and another as a control non modded - I litterality sent him 3 headphones to test - you know what Amir did? He sat on them for 7-8 months. By then I already developed three other Versions with improvements because that's what I do is always innovate and try to improve- by then it was pointless to wait a year for a test review from Amir. I know he was busy he kept saying. I get it. So am I. I will let my customers speak for how they hear it and let you measurement people have their debate after I leave. I know if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it did Amir get a SINAD out of it? I love ASR and that's why I sent the R9s for testing. I read Amir's and ASR stuff all the time - I am information junkie. But let me get back to work as you should as well.

You fail to understand that this forum doesn't deal with creative interpretations of legitimate science. The diffusive properties of the fractals are only significant when the distance away from the diffuser is significantly larger than diffuser depth... which doesn't occur in a headphone.
 

Scgorg

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You fail to understand that this forum doesn't deal with creative interpretations of legitimate science. The diffusive properties of the fractals are only significant when the distance away from the diffuser is significantly larger than diffuser depth... which doesn't occur in a headphone.
Not to mention that fractal diffusers require depth that is significant relative to the wavelengths you're interested in managing. I can hardly imagine working with more than a centimeter or two of depth in a headphone. Those example simulations on the website contain no information about the size of the simulated diffuser, from what I can see.
 

Ilkless

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It's like the reverse of what metamaterials are doing... except there is nowhere to diffuse the energy to in a headphone, compared to absorption.
 
OP
Z

Zoide

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It's like the reverse of what metamaterials are doing... except there is nowhere to diffuse the energy to in a headphone, compared to absorption.
What do you mean? I'm a layman but am open to learning. Thanks
 

Ilkless

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What KEF and Dan Clark are doing are to build intricate shapes with numerous internal passages/tubes with very long paths that act as an overlapping series of tuned absorbers, leading to extremely high and uniform levels of absorption. Such a design is called an acoustic metamaterial. This is possible in the headphone form factor. What isn't possible is the converse: broadband diffusion like JM Audio purports, with the shapes he claim to use because the mechanism of the diffusion requires significant distance away from the diffusor, not possible in the distance involved in a headphone
 

vikinguy

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Has anyone here listened to the JM Audio XTC headphones?



They are original creations from John Massaria, who apparently has a very good track record modifying headphones from Kennerton and Hifiman.

He claims to have picked the best beryllium and biowool drivers in the market, plus a number of interesting innovations:


(https://www.jmaudioeditions.com/innovations)

The XTC have some rave reviews on Reddit and Head-Fi, but I know that people are prone to hype, "Flavor of the Month", etc.

So... What do folks think over here on the objectivist, more skeptical side of the hobby?

Thanks
I've heard them!

I don't wanna go too over the top since this thread has some odd posts but I will say I have the xtc open bio wool and the beryllium and they are the only two headphones I have. Sold everything else. They are fantastic.
 

Ilkless

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I've heard them!

I don't wanna go too over the top since this thread has some odd posts but I will say I have the xtc open bio wool and the beryllium and they are the only two headphones I have. Sold everything else. They are fantastic.

I'm not sure why you consider calling out intuition-driven pseudoscience odd for ASR.
 
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vikinguy

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I'm not sure why you consider calling out intuition-driven pseudoscience odd for ASR.
Do you wanna talk about how the headphones sound? I think if you go back to the OP you'll see that was the reason for the thread.

Frankly, if you haven't heard them you should probably sit this one out.
 

BDWoody

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The XTC have some rave reviews on Reddit and Head-Fi, but I know that people are prone to hype, "Flavor of the Month", etc.

So... What do folks think over here on the objectivist, more skeptical side of the hobby?

Do you wanna talk about how the headphones sound? I think if you go back to the OP you'll see that was the reason for the thread.

Frankly, if you haven't heard them you should probably sit this one out.

Seems he was asking for general input from the educated skeptics that hang out here for a reality check, which he got. You must have missed that part...it was all the way at the end.

Maybe you can dial back the snark, or just sit this one out.
 

vikinguy

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Seems he was asking for general input from the educated skeptics that hang out here for a reality check, which he got. You must have missed that part...it was all the way at the end.

Maybe you can dial back the snark, or just sit this one out.
Nah, I'm good. I enjoy headphones! JM produces some of the absolute best I've heard. Have you heard them? What are your thoughts on the Mids? Biowool or Berylium? Which pads are you using? What's your chain? I'm running mine through a Burson Soloist with my iFi gryphon. A surprisingly well matched setup despite its randomness.

One of the things that really surprised me about the XTC bio wool was the speed of the DD. It's not far off from hekv2 and Susvara. Definitely the speediest DD bass I've heard.

The low end is so incredibly satisfying. I'm no bass head but I do like a nice textured low end that you can feel. Zero bleed into the Mids. It really is quite the listening experience.

Treble is very well extended without a hint of sibilance. No upper mid annoying peak either. It literally does everything extremely well. And for $799.

I had mine tuned "warm but detailed". There are several other tuning choices or you can talk to JM about precisely what you're looking for and he'll keep at it until you love it.

A very unique and lovely experience.
 

JMAudio

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Oh, and

"Has anyone here listened to the JM Audio XTC headphones?"

-OP

Reading is fundamental.
I guess that was the original question wasn't it - and you plainly answered honestly. Thanks for that. To make assumptions without actually listening or testing gear seems disingenuous and antithetical to the scientific process. That's what science I believe is; Science consists of observing the world by watching, listening, observing, and recording.
None of the things were done by other posters - just conjecture and not even a hypothesis- no testing no listening no observing and no recording. Not scientific. A hypothesis is usually a prediction based on some observation or evidence. Hypotheses must be testable, and once tested, they can be supported by evidence. If a statement is made that cannot be tested and disproved, then it is not a hypothesis.
 
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Zoide

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I can see the merit and value of both arguments:
  • The objectivist case for determining if JM Audio's claimed innovations are plausible given the science involved
  • The subjectivist case for adding listening impressions as a complementary data point
So thanks for sharing them!

Let's just please avoid the combative part and try to be more constructive. ;)
 
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