Klippel distortion tests (two-tone 70hz 800hz tests). Where do you fit, as compared to +8680 participants?

[Pdxwayne]

Samsung Note 9 headphones jack out to Taotronics headphones. 2 tones, second tries:

 

[oivavoi]

Super interesting test! I previously followed some similar work my archimago on distortion.
Wondering if those >- 100db SINAD dacs make any difference at all after this....

I did some similar distortion testing some years ago, which was really an eye opener. With music I found more or less the same thing as with this test: most kinds of distortion stops being noticeable fairly quickly, at least as long as one doesn't listen for it attentively. So I have long thought that a SINAD of 60 is usually more than enough, at least when it comes to distortion. Noise and hiss is a different matter.

Loudspeakers and headphones is where the important differences are.

Btw, @Pdxwayne : maybe it's a good idea to open a poll here? I suspect that the people who post their results will be those who do better than average, whereas others will refrain from posting...

 

[Pdxwayne]

I did some similar distortion testing some years ago, which was really an eye opener. With music I found more or less the same thing as with this test: most kinds of distortion stops being noticeable fairly quickly, at least as long as one doesn't listen for it attentively. So I have long thought that a SINAD of 60 is usually more than enough, at least when it comes to distortion. Noise and hiss is a different matter.

Loudspeakers and headphones is where the important differences are.

Btw, @Pdxwayne : maybe it's a good idea to open a poll here? I suspect that the people who post their results will be those who do better than average, whereas others will refrain from posting...

Thanks! Just opened a poll.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I did some similar distortion testing some years ago, which was really an eye opener. With music I found more or less the same thing as with this test: most kinds of distortion stops being noticeable fairly quickly, at least as long as one doesn't listen for it attentively. So I have long thought that a SINAD of 60 is usually more than enough, at least when it comes to distortion. Noise and hiss is a different matter.

Loudspeakers and headphones is where the important differences are.

Btw, @Pdxwayne : maybe it's a good idea to open a poll here? I suspect that the people who post their results will be those who do better than average, whereas others will refrain from posting...

Regarding -60 is enough or not, I guess it depends on the chain?

Let's say a person get DAC, preamp, and amp that are all -60 and good enough individually.

Using http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-coherentsources.htm to calculate the additive effect of distortion.

First -60 and -60 comes to -53.979

Add -53.979 to the third -60 and the cumulative is -50.457.

Looking at the distribution chart for the music distortion test results, it would seem certain small percentage of population out there might be able to sense a difference for ~-50.

 

[oivavoi]

Regarding -60 is enough or not, I guess it depends on the chain?

Let's say a person get DAC, preamp, and amp that are all -60 and good enough individually.

Using http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-coherentsources.htm to calculate the additive effect of distortion.

First -60 and -60 comes to -53.979

Add -53.979 to the third -60 and the cumulative is -50.457.

Looking at the distribution chart for the music distortion test results, it would seem certain small percentage of population out there might be able to sense a difference for ~-50.

That's true. I don't think there's any doubt that some people can hear a cumulative SINAD of 60 under the right circumstances. My point was that distortion 30 db down when playing music seems relatively ok to me, I really need to listen attentively to pick it out. Whereas frequency response and dispersion characteristics in loudspeakers, and room acoustics stuff like flutter echo etc, are things which are immediately noticeable, both to me and most other people. There's no harm in getting electronics with really low THD of course, but for me personally it doesn't matter that much anymore.

Anyways: off-topic over! The poll doesn't seem to get that many participants?

 

[Pdxwayne]

That's true. I don't think there's any doubt that some people can hear a cumulative SINAD of 60 under the right circumstances. My point was that distortion 30 db down when playing music seems relatively ok to me, I really need to listen attentively to pick it out. Whereas frequency response and dispersion characteristics in loudspeakers, and room acoustics stuff like flutter echo etc, are things which are immediately noticeable, both to me and most other people. There's no harm in getting electronics with really low THD of course, but for me personally it doesn't matter that much anymore.

Anyways: off-topic over! The poll doesn't seem to get that many participants?

Yeah, even Amir's original distortion thread didn't go that far. Not that many participants there either....

Anyway, thanks for testing and sharing results!

 

[Pdxwayne]

That's true. I don't think there's any doubt that some people can hear a cumulative SINAD of 60 under the right circumstances. My point was that distortion 30 db down when playing music seems relatively ok to me, I really need to listen attentively to pick it out. Whereas frequency response and dispersion characteristics in loudspeakers, and room acoustics stuff like flutter echo etc, are things which are immediately noticeable, both to me and most other people. There's no harm in getting electronics with really low THD of course, but for me personally it doesn't matter that much anymore.

Anyways: off-topic over! The poll doesn't seem to get that many participants?

BTW, to me, your point about "distortion level -30 is good enough" is not off topic at all. I agree with you.

Just by looking at the music result chart, indeed for majority of people out there, -30 is more than enough. Spending more for more transparent chain unlikely to bring further benefits. Getting better speakers and fixing room issues are of more values.

Also, I noticed that when taking the tests, my sensitivity reduced fast after listening at good volume level for a short while. So, I assume -30 would also be enough for majority of people with more sensitive hearing, especially if they have been listening to music through out the day.

I can think of a certain scenario where a person would appreciate a more transparent chain:

*Have more sensitive hearing than majority of people
*Well rested and not exposed to loud noise for a while
*Listening to music critically for a short period ot time
*Listening to music where high clarity is needed to fully demonstrate it's potential for large 3d sound stage

 

[oivavoi]

BTW, to me, your point about "distortion level -30 is good enough" is not off topic at all. I agree with you.

Just by looking at the music result chart, indeed for majority of people out there, -30 is more than enough. Spending more for more transparent chain unlikely to bring further benefits. Getting better speakers and fixing room issues are of more values.

Also, I noticed that when taking the tests, my sensitivity reduced fast after listening at good volume level for a short while. So, I assume -30 would also be enough for majority of people with more sensitive hearing, especially if they have been listening to music through out the day.

I can think of a certain scenario where a person would appreciate a more transparent chain:

*Have more sensitive hearing than majority of people
*Well rested and not exposed to loud noise for a while
*Listening to music critically for a short period ot time
*Listening to music where high clarity is needed to fully demonstrate it's potential for large 3d sound stage

Agreed! There's no harm in getting better electronics, of course And if one can, as we can fairly cheaply these days, then why not? But I do think that it's still fairly easy to get hung up on unnecessary things in audio.

 

[CrustyToad]

Indeed no harm in getting better electronics. I just don't get why we there is not any real competition on products that do proper room eq. That's where the bigger gains are to be made.

Instead we are flooded with dacs that improve sinad to below 110db....
But yeah everybody has their own idea of what should be done in the end, including myself

Maybe ASR should start asking members to contribute to this and other tests. That way we can establish some standards just like with the preference curve for speakers maybe

 

[Chromatischism]

Instead we are flooded with dacs that improve sinad to below 110db....

Remember that SINAD includes both noise (N) and distortion (D). A very low noise floor is really important for sensitive IEMs.

I am not saying you need 110 SINAD to get there though.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Indeed no harm in getting better electronics. I just don't get why we there is not any real competition on products that do proper room eq. That's where the bigger gains are to be made.

Instead we are flooded with dacs that improve sinad to below 110db....
But yeah everybody has their own idea of what should be done in the end, including myself

Maybe ASR should start asking members to contribute to this and other tests. That way we can establish some standards just like with the preference curve for speakers maybe

Indeed, I am looking forward to minidsp competitions. I really hope to get something like SHD in the $500 range.

 

[CrustyToad]

Indeed, I am looking forward to minidsp competitions. I really hope to get something like SHD in the $500 range.

+1

Thats exactly my point. Dac +pre-amp that includes room eq and sub crossovers. You add an ncore and you are done. Instead we get myriads of dacs. Topping needs to enter this game

 

[Pdxwayne]

+1

Thats exactly my point. Dac +pre-amp that includes room eq and sub crossovers. You add an ncore and you are done. Instead we get myriads of dacs. Topping needs to enter this game

Yes, I want Topping's quality products with eq and sub crossover.

I have two regular minidsp 2x4 and one 2x4 HD. I am looking for something better for my living room setup, but cheaper than the SHD.

It could be the IMD issue for 2x4 HD, when added it to my living room chain, I got significantly more hiss. Music playback not as "clean" sounding either.

Something lower cost, but with SHD quality from Topping, etc., would be great!

 

[Pdxwayne]

I checked music distortion with AKG 371 and my phone again yesterday and found out that for that combination, softer volume is easier than louder. Louder, I got not much better than mean. Softer, I could get much better than mean, although still not the best.

Samsung Note 9 to AKG 371

 

[GaryH]

I am glad you agree that the recording is crap. I had the same thought the first time I tried that a while back.

That Tracy Chapman test is flawed, so any ABX results from it are null and void.

 

[Pdxwayne]

That Tracy Chapman test is flawed, so any ABX results from it are null and void.

I thought that was in "-" mode and at the end of the song?

Do you sense anything wrong with non "-“ song, other than it sounded bad to begin with?

Yeah, this is just mostly for fun..and to share tips in listening tests.

My thread is more about the 2 tones anyway....

Thx!

 

[Chromatischism]

I checked music distortion with AKG 371 and my phone again yesterday and found out that for that combination, softer volume is easier than louder. Louder, I got not much better than mean. Softer, I could get much better than mean, although still not the best.

Samsung Note 9 to AKG 371



View attachment 162777

Were there any instructions in the test about what dB level to use? If not all of these results are probably invalid...

 

[Pdxwayne]

Were there any instructions in the test about what dB level to use? If not all of these results are probably invalid...

The instruction was to use a comfortable level and don't change the level during tests.

 

[JayGilb]

with music on HD800:
View attachment 162037

Whoa - I'm guessing you have a usb port located behind your left ear.

 

[rdenney]

Average at best for me. Same result in two tries: -33 dB. Sony QC 35 II from an iPhone over Bluetooth.

Rick “maybe the subtler distortion products are masked by my tinnitus ” Denney