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Magnepan Fan Makes a Video for the LRS

wje

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I love your video @TitaniumTroy I have some modified Super MMG's that I enjoy daily. I'm scared to death to see Amir's review of the LRS.

Regardless of how the specs and measurements come out on the LRS, one still can't beat the price of $650. The numbers may not be pleasing, but Magnepan puts their money in their speakers and not some impressive piano gloss lacquered cabinet that will look good for the first day, then show the dust particles and develop small swirl scratches from the efforts of keeping the dust off of them. Even my local dealer thought that Magnepan should raise their prices a bit for what they offer, when compared to a box speaker. Granted, there are fans on both camps - pros and cons for each. Give me a few weeks with the new speakers when they arrive and then I'll determine if I'm still a fan boy of them. o_O:p:cool:
 

DonH56

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I have a post somewhere describing the difference between a true ribbon and planar-magnetic. Couldn't find the post, but here's a (badly-drawn) picture:

1596760526257.png


Basically, the newest Magnepan models have moved from wires glued to a thin plastic sheet, to traces patterned on the sheet more like a printed-circuit board in what they call "quasi-ribbon". I assume the name is because the patterned traces are sort-of like a ribbon, and thinner/lighter than the wires used before, but in terms of the physics (EM waves) I would not call them ribbons.

Surprisingly, when switching to "box" speakers in my main system after living with various Maggies since ca. 1979, I have not really missed the Maggies.

FWIWFM - Don
 
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Vasr

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The amazing thing about Magnepans is how they sound relative to the crude construction that pretty much resembles a summer school project inside (at least the older ones). And it is also tolerant to a lot of variations as my experience in restoring my 20yo SMGa speakers showed.

These had developed buzzing and seemed to require a lot of power to drive. This can happen when the old style wires glued to the mylar sheet start to lift away from the sheet. Since I had some time when the pandemic lock-down began, I decided to restore them.

Typically, the lifting happens at the ends like this on my left speaker
smga1.png


But there can also be small lifting in the middle that causes buzzing.

I thought this was a simple glue the ends down affair. But as soon as I started to lift the ends to find the sufficiently glued part, it started to resemble a very bad hair day. The original glue was really really weak all the way up to the middle.
smga2.png


Thought for sure I had pretty much screwed them up beyond repair.

But after much patience and handiwork that would prepare one for a second career as a carpet weaver in the streets of Kabul, I managed to tame them down and straightened out. They are not going to pull out ever now without destroying the mylar sheet!
smga3.png


It won't look pretty with hand gluing but seems to make no difference to the sound. The over-delivering factor in sound from such a crudely put together part is only matched by the awe when you put together for the first-time two cans and a string as a kid to do a walkie-talkie.

I also replaced the original cap (no fancy cap, Parts Express store brand). Can't say I hear any difference but before and after REW measurements showed smoother crossover region.
 

GXAlan

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I only sent him one. I didn't want to blow a ton on shipping :p ... But I was able to fit a MOTU in the box with it though instead of the 2nd speaker so more variety ;)

I have the original MG-III which I had factory rebuilt about 10 years ago. It was my favorite speaker up until getting the 1994 JBL S/2600 Baby-Everest. The shipping box houses both panels so it's too heavy for Amir to test. For female vocals or coffee-house guitar solos, the MG-III is still sublime. But for movies and modern music with a lot of IMD or dynamics, my S/2600 sounds better to me. I used to run the MG-III's with monoblock Adcom GFA-555's and then dedicated PS-Audio 200C's but run the JBL S/2600's with a Class A Accuphase amp.

The real debate amount Magnepan enthusiasts is FRONT magnets vs. REAR magnets
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html

The debate comes from whether the old-school approach or the modern approach is more accurate.
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=197416
https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=mug&n=194584

@amirm, when you test the LRS, you need to try it both normally and then in reverse polarity with the speaker rotated around so that you're listening from the back of the LRS.

The claim is that mylar-in-front makes the midrange more transparent, but the as the mylar moves forward in bass, the mylar enters a region of weaker magnetic field strength. In contrast, the original Magnepans (including ones with the 6 ft aluminum ribbon) put the magnets in front because they thought that the leading edge of a bass transient entered into a region of higher magnetic field (for better control) and sounded better.

Tweeter-in and tweeter-out is also a debate amongst Magnepan enthusiasts, and it really depends on the room. The Klippel will be fun to see.
 
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GXAlan

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These had developed buzzing and seemed to require a lot of power to drive. This can happen when the old style wires glued to the mylar sheet start to lift away from the sheet. Since I had some time when the pandemic lock-down began, I decided to restore them.

Nice job! The old wires are fine, it's the glue that's the issue. The glue used in the original generation Magnepans (such as the SMGa's that you have) were sensitive to UV. One of the amazing things about Magnepan is that you can still send your speakers for refurbishing even if they're 40+ years old. They don't have the old-school burlap sock (grill), and they won't "upgrade" your speaker to something new, but they will do a full restoration at reasonable pricing and use the current generation glues which should last indefinitely.
 

iLoveCats

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I also replaced the original cap (no fancy cap, Parts Express store brand). Can't say I hear any difference but before and after REW measurements showed smoother crossover region.

Theres a russian 100uF cap I put in mine that's as big as my fist. I thought the low end tightened up a lot. Who knows. I also bypassed the jumpers and fuses.
 

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DonH56

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Random thoughts:

Delamination was a big issue with the original glue; the new (3M, I think) is better, and of course they've now gone away from regular wires in their "quasi-ribbon" panels. I spent a fair amount of time re-gluing wires on older panels back when I was a tech. Got really good at pulling and replacing the sox for a while there...

Magnepan went back and forth on front vs. rear magnets, and of course put them on both sides of the upper models (I assume still do but have not seen a 20.7 or 30.7). Pros and cons, with cons mostly in the very HF region.

Most crossover changes that caused audible/measurable results were due to shifting the frequencies a bit, and sometimes the amplitude (mainly via larger-gauge inductor wires). Changing crossover slopes (which varied over the years and models and were sometimes asymmetric) could help (or hurt). Replacing the early caps with "audiophile" varieties was/is popular but blind tests were much less conclusive IME (old, now). Still, made me money for books back then.

Bypassing the fuses in Maggies and other speakers was all the rage for a while. Led to a lot of blown tweeters (panels and ribbons) so was fairly lucrative. These days amplifier protection is generally better so speaker fuses are less a thing (manufacturers fed on the audiophile desire to eliminate them and saved money in the process, can't really blame them).

Much less often I saw folk who removed the modal dots, the little dots tying the panels down and seemingly random spots to break up modes, in an effort to "free the sound". Of course it was usually worse (if they were honest about what they heard) and I had to come up with a few ways of explaining panel modes and resonances.

Stand mods, always popular, had little sonic impact in terms of actual performance. It was sometimes measurable but rarely audible in terms of things like distortion and transient response. Another of those things folks tried without understanding. Raising the speakers and/or adjusting the launch angle could benefit certain systems, however, so not all bad or inaudible.

Onwards - Don
 
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D

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I love your video @TitaniumTroy I have some modified Super MMG's that I enjoy daily. I'm scared to death to see Amir's review of the LRS.
There's no reason to be scared. They're not going to measure well.....relative to the typical metric employed. In fact, you could say the NFS is probably a totally inappropriate testing system for this type of speaker. It's going to show all sorts of response variations that will have readers raising their eyebrows.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-more-comments

Dave.
 
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CDMC

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I really want to know max SPL on this model. The company doesn’t give wattage recommendations.

Based on my experience owning a half dozen pairs of maggies over the past 25+ years, likely about 100db. In my experience, if run full range, the SPL limit is generally limited because the panels will slap when they hit a loud bass note when they reach their limit. High passed, they get to point of dynamic compression where they just don't really get much louder after a point. Even my 3.5s, high passed at 80hz with 600 watts to each one will not get much above 102-103db.
 
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CDMC

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It’s going to sound great even though it measures poorly. The “forced EQ” will make female vocals and guitars sound sublime.

When you do your subjective listening, since it’s a planar, you should try to set it up as a stereo pair. I suspect that’s necessary for proper integration.

I

I am sure they will measure poorly in terms of Kippel. In room, mine measure pretty well. Here are my 3.5s compared to my Revel F208s with 1/12 octave smoothing (note they SPL levels have been offset to make it easier to compare).
Maggies v. Revel.jpg
.
 

CDMC

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I owned Magneplanars for over 15 years. First, MMG's then MG 1.6QR's. Basically I loved every minute of them. I only moved to a dynamic "box" speaker to save space and reduce the room-dominating nature of the Maggies.

I am in the same club, except SMGa, .6, 1.2, 2.7, and 3.5s. I have tried to replace them several times with box speakers and come close (Vandersteen 3a Sigs, Salk Song 3, and now Revel F208). I think the F208s will stick, they don't have that amazing (artificially large) presence as the Maggies, but much better dynamics and respond better to equalization. Perhaps more importantly, despite Wife 2.0 understanding they came with me into the marriage, I am tired of the complaining about their dominance of the room and I do most of listening now on my desktop system (which is amazing).
 

CDMC

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The amazing thing about Magnepans is how they sound relative to the crude construction that pretty much resembles a summer school project inside (at least the older ones). And it is also tolerant to a lot of variations as my experience in restoring my 20yo SMGa speakers showed.

These had developed buzzing and seemed to require a lot of power to drive. This can happen when the old style wires glued to the mylar sheet start to lift away from the sheet. Since I had some time when the pandemic lock-down began, I decided to restore them.

Typically, the lifting happens at the ends like this on my left speaker
View attachment 76959

But there can also be small lifting in the middle that causes buzzing.

I thought this was a simple glue the ends down affair. But as soon as I started to lift the ends to find the sufficiently glued part, it started to resemble a very bad hair day. The original glue was really really weak all the way up to the middle.
View attachment 76961

Thought for sure I had pretty much screwed them up beyond repair.

But after much patience and handiwork that would prepare one for a second career as a carpet weaver in the streets of Kabul, I managed to tame them down and straightened out. They are not going to pull out ever now without destroying the mylar sheet!
View attachment 76962

It won't look pretty with hand gluing but seems to make no difference to the sound. The over-delivering factor in sound from such a crudely put together part is only matched by the awe when you put together for the first-time two cans and a string as a kid to do a walkie-talkie.

I also replaced the original cap (no fancy cap, Parts Express store brand). Can't say I hear any difference but before and after REW measurements showed smoother crossover region.

The SMGa's are rolled off in the top end and very limited dynamically. Despite that, they may still be the favorite pair of Maggies I have owned. They brought me years of pleasure combined with a Hafler DH-220 and Velodyne F1000 subwoofer. I would go listen to high end speakers at dealers in the 90s (when most high end speakers were $3,000-10,000 tops) and was never disappointing going back to my $250 SMGas.
 

Vasr

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One of the amazing things about Magnepan is that you can still send your speakers for refurbishing even if they're 40+ years old. They don't have the old-school burlap sock (grill), and they won't "upgrade" your speaker to something new, but they will do a full restoration at reasonable pricing and use the current generation glues which should last indefinitely.

My SMGa has the smooth black sock not the knotty burlap of the original SMGs. The sock is amazingly durable as I found out for restoration and the style has withstood time very well.
smga.png


I believe they do have a cut-off period for factory restoration (to this century if I am not mistaken) but they will sell you a restoration kit complete with new wires and glue. You can get the glue from places like zoro.com if you don't need to replace wires. In any case, sending a SMG for restoration for the total cost with shipping makes no sense unless one is really wedded to that model.

Theres a russian 100uF cap I put in mine that's as big as my fist. I thought the low end tightened up a lot. Who knows. I also bypassed the jumpers and fuses.

There are a lot of myths, voodoo and urban legends around these speakers and it is hard to figure out what is real and what isn't. I just wanted to replace the old electrolytic capacitor after 20 years while I had the sock off for restoration as a precautionary measure. Parts Express has a non-polar electrolytic equivalent that is smaller than the original but anything else is too big to fit in place and requires a bulge or a separate box. Didn't want to go there. Some of those crossover designs floating around for these can cost $200+ dollars each in "premium" parts.

I did have both the fuses blow once, not sure what exactly caused it. So, I think it is a reasonable precaution.
 

Newman

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FYI my review sample of LRS is here!
Do you have a clear plan for how to use the Klippel near-field to measure a speaker that, being quasi-line-source, will have a response that varies greatly with listening distance?

AFAICT measuring a quasi-line up-close can give a very wrong impression.

I'm very interested in how this is handled.

cheers
 

wje

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The Magnepan .7 speakers arrived yesterday. They were only used a few weeks by the previous owner before he decided to go up to the 3.7i - due to his larger room size. I'm waiting on the LRS model to arrive today as it's scheduled to be delivered. The .7 digs 5 Hz lower than the LRS and goes 2 kHz higher when compared to the LRS. However, for my 16' x 15' condominium living room - that opens to the kitchen and dining area, the .7 seems like a great match for my situation. I initially set up the speakers for "wide" by having the tweeters to the outside before heading out for the day. Then, spent more time last night repositioning them - tweeters on the inside, as they should be for most listening situations, etc. Adjusted my subwoofer crossover cut-off to 45 Hz, 12dB slope via the Mini DSP.

Granted, I realize sound is very subjective to each and all of us. Are the Magnepans my "end game" for speakers? It's hard to tell because I've owned so many. However, I also reflect on my 1,000 mile round trip about 4 years back to purchase a pair of Focal 1027BE speakers from the seller because he didn't want to ship me. Being both speakers were purchased as used, the Magnepan .7 speakers were 1/3rd the cost that I had paid for the Focals. Were the Focals worth 3 times the cost? That's a hard call to make. For me, at the time, it seemed like the Focals were the answer and I often would overlook the Magnepans because they just didn't appeal to me and I thought there was no way a 1.5" thick speaker panel could perform better than a 75+ Lb. floor standing speaker. I realized in this respect, I was wrong not to at least give the Magnpans a fair shake four years ago. Then again, the LRS, .7, etc. didn't exist either.

I'm OK with the 100dB or so of max outputs for these speakers as being in a condominium, I don't see myself getting close to those volume levels of listening.


Magnepan .7 Speakers A.JPG
 

Vasr

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It seems hard to justify a .7 over an LRS for the cost differential if you have a separate sub-woofer.
 
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Wes

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Random thoughts:

... Got really good at pulling and replacing the sox for a while there...

Onwards - Don


Any tips on an R&R of the socks? I am thinking about a color change of the socks & wood strips on my 3.7's...

AFAIK, you need a big table to lie them down on and lots of time...
 
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wje

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It seems hard to justify a .7 over an LRS for the cost differential if you have a separate sub-woofer.

I'm starting to realize this. I just picked up the pair of LRS from the post office during lunch - the post office was too lazy to deliver the 40 Lb. box. I will post more pictures and impressions the variables between the two after I've applied a few more adjustment to the crossover, positioning, etc. It's also hard to tell if Magnepan will eventually release their "concept" speaker, the Mini 3.7i, which has also been referred to as the "condominium" Magnepan.

But, keep in mind, when I do make my post, they are impressions based upon my listening - I'm not able to perform any A/B double-blind testing for a more true assessment, though. o_O - However, I did hear back from Magnepan on Friday as I was going to order a pair from them before finding a nice, used pair just before they reached out to me. Sadly, Magnepan indicated the current wait time on the LRS was approximately 15 weeks once the order was placed.
 

wje

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OK, not sure where to exactly begin here. Since the LRS and the .7 models were both purchased used, they didn't require any break in period on my end other than running each set of speakers for a few hours through some of the various tracks that I'm familiar with.

Some, at times, can be a bit critical of the piano performance on the magneplanar speaker. However, to my ears, I don't feel that the piano blends in the music I listen to are marred in any way. Others who listen to much more piano music might believe otherwise, and seek out a different speaker that's designed to portray the piano performance in a manner more suitable to their tastes.

Magnepan .7 speakers: The paper "specs" have this model digging a little bit deeper in the frequency response on the low end (45 Hz) while also a little more advance in the highs (22 kHz) as opposed to the LRS model. The sensitivity is the same as the LRS @ 86dB. The .7 speakers were utilized with the factory "L" brackets. These are "fixed" brackets and don't allow you any additional method of adjustment, aside from buying separate stands from Magnepan that keep the speakers straight up at a 90-degree angle. The factory "L" brackets have a slight slope to them, where the .7 model tilts back a few degrees.

Magnepan LRS speakers: The paper "specs" have this model capable of going down to 50 Hz, and 20 kHz at the upper again. Again, the sensitivity is 86 dB, the same as the .7 model. The LRS includes the factory "L" brackets and the speakers have a bit more of rear lean on them at the top when using the brackets in the standard position. However, the "L" brackets for the LRS do have a built-in square, bailing wire insert that you can flip down, and raise the rear of the "L" bracket stand up by about 1.5". This puts the angle of the LRS at approximately the same slope/angle that the .7 model features with the non-adjustable "L" bracket for that model.

Since my living room is 15' x 16', I initially felt that either the .7 or the LRS might be both quite suitable for my scenario. Also, I do have (2) 10" Monolith subs, with the ports currently plugged. Crossover functionality is set up via my Mini DSP 2x4 HD device to integrate the two subwoofers. When listening to the .7, I set the low frequency crossover to 42 and then 45 Hz with a 12dB slope. For the LRS listening, I set the low pass crossover to 50 Hz with a 12dB slope. In both of these listening situations, I didn't feel like the speed and performance of the subwoofer was lagging when compared to the speed of the sound from the Magnepan speakers. Some other reviewers and commenters have noted the difference in sound speed when it came to subwoofer integration. It seems than several listeners have preferred the use of the REL 7i sub for use with their Magenpans. This is the same subwoofer that I heard utilized in the dealer's showroom with the .7 model that I listened to last week.

I used the IOTAVX SA3 as my preamplifier, the Crown XLS1502 for my power amplifier, the Khadas tone board for my DAC and Amazon HD tracks fed through my Blue Sound Node 2i streamer. Some reviewers and commenters have had some solid opionions when it came to amplifiers for driving the Magnepan speakers. In some of the You Tube videos, Magnepan would utilize Bryston amplifiers for driving their speakers at the shows. At my local dealer, I heard the .7 model being driven by the Parasound A23x. Yet, to my ears, I don't feel that the Crown XLS1502 is a weak link by any sense. Though, given the number of times I've swapped gear in and out, I'd like to say I'm content with the Crown amp - but, hints of finding a Bryston, a Parasound or even a higher-end Emotiva model have crossed my mind here and there. For now, though, it's the Crown that's in place and being utilized.

Listening impressions:

The LRS present themselves with a bit more "sizzle" at the upper end of the frequencies when compared to the .7 model. Or, that's how my ears interpreted it. I'd be hard stretched to indicated I could hear any difference between the lower ends of the LRS and .7, given the 5 Hz frequency difference, on paper. Though, with the .7, I did find that the mid-range had a bit of a better presence. Yet, I'm not faulting the LRS as being deficient when it comes to mid-range frequencies. It is still a quite pleasant sounding speaker. At $650, the LRS is truly a hard to beat speaker. $650 is the base price of the speakers. If you buy from Magnepan, you'd pay for the shipping to get the speakers to you. While if you buy from your local dealer, then Magnepan ships the speakers to your dealer and you pick them up, the dealer will usually absorb the shipping fees, but you'll then be responsible for the state sales taxes, if your state has a sales tax. So, it's essentially a toss up in cost. Also, Magnepan tries to encourage you to utilize the local dealer, wherever possible. In my case, my local dealer wouldn't really handle the LRS transaction because of the delayed build and delivery time of the LRS, which was why I reached out to Magenpan for quote.

I actually posted the LRS for sale, locally, today before receiving shipment of them as I thought the .7 was going to be my "keeper". However, I'm not so sure at the moment as to which I may keep as many more speaker swaps between the LRS and .7 are in order for the rest of today, tonight, and tomorrow to allow me to get a better grasp of which one I might prefer more. However, given the LRS @ $650 and the .7 @ $1,450 - new purchase prices, the LRS really isn't a slouch in any way. Clearly, Magenpan came up with the LRS as form of a "loss leader" to allow a buyer to get their foot in the door with a pair of Magenpan speakers. Is the $800 price difference between the LRS and the .7 model truly justified? Well, it can depend on many variables - room size, budget, etc. Though, I have a feeling for most buyers, the $800 might be utilized towards other gear upgrades of you opted for the LRS model. But, if one really had a thirst for a stronger mid-range presence, the .7 would the better option to reach for.

All of my listening was done with the tweeter configured on the inside position of the speakers, as opposed to swapping the L/R speakers to have the tweeters positioned on the outside edge of the speakers. I initially set my .7 model up yesterday with the tweeters on the outside, but switched later in the day and preferred them on the inside position for more intimate listening by myself. However, if you were going to play either speaker for a larger group of listeners, then one might opt to have the tweeters on the outside for those listening scenarios.

Pictures:

The thumbnail pictures I've attached to this post reflect the visual size differences between the .7 and LRS models. The LRS is covered with the black grill cloth and has the cherry red side inlays. The .7 model has the dark grey cloth grill with silver side inlays. Please click on the thumbnail to view a larger resolution of the image.

(1st picture: the LRS and .7 model to reflect size differences, 2nd picture: the .7 model, 3rd picture: LRS model).

DSC01032.JPG7i Left.JPGLRS - Cropped.JPG
 
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Vasr

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Visually, the LRS seems like the right size in proportion based on the pictures and wouldn't feel like it is blocking the windows, FWIW. But that is a very subjective thing.

So Magnepan doesn't collect state tax for online orders?
 
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