Master Thread: “Objectivism versus Subjectivism” debate and is there a middle ground?

[solderdude]

Sorry, I did not get your point. Claim was the pre and post ringing created by sharp filters would be audible in the form of extra bass. I suggested to record the signal with sharp filter and slow filter and see if there is any difference in bass. I am not sure I follow how differences above Nyquist would be relevant for this claim.

I'm not saying that a filter boosts the bass, the difference lies in the attack of bass or kick drums.

It won't affect the bass nor the attack of the bass which is well below 1/4 Nyquist anyway. Just stating that you cannot simulate the flawed response (only below 1/2 Nyquist) of a slow filter as that also could affect above half Nyquist which could (with some devices) perhaps alias with something or create IM products that could become audible.
When you simulate the slow filter on a DAC with a steep filter everything above it is gone so can't 'do' anything possibly sound degrading any more.

The claim was not that the filter would be audible as extra bass but that the attack would be different.

Clearly Hasan Aydin never looked at the spectrum of said instruments.

 

[kemmler3D]

I only see FR measurements here nothing about audibilty of IR differences.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm not saying that a filter boosts the bass, the difference lies in the attack of bass or kick drums. With a linear phase filter it is less defined and sounds muddy, with minimum phase filters the bass sounds harder, of course you don't see such changes in the frequency response because it is in the time domain.

Most of the evidence and research we have relates to FR and amplitude, but differences in time, such as pre and post ringing, are less researched. Measurements are not enough, human testing is also needed

If you can get the IR of a given filter this is easy to test in a DAW. Most of them should have convolution effects, all you need to do is play some drum samples (most DAWs come with those too) and swap in different IRs and see if you can hear a difference. You can A/B it as fast as you please by enabling / disabling the convolver plugin.

The FL Studio demo would work well for this, (free and has all this stuff), if you can find or generate the IRs in question.

 

[kemmler3D]

so far I've seen no evidence that phase shift is audible.

It can be clearly audible, at least in extreme cases. Some synthesizers will let you edit the phase of harmonics individually. The sound of some waveforms changes quite a bit if you randomize the phase of each constituent harmonic.

 

[oleg87]

To illustrate that even "blind testing" of filters can have pitfalls if you don't actually test for other confounding factors, here's the output level of my Qudelix 5K as I go through its various DAC filters, zoomed out so you just see the amplitude envelope over time. It's being fed a continuous 200hz sine wave. Both the initial amplitudes and the amplitudes it (rather mysteriously, to me) settles to after some seconds are audibly different and will confound any comparison.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

In a way I can understand a middle ground. Science is coming up with the best explanation/most precise prediction available based on current knowledge. The door is always open to something else. I'm willing to live with the possibility that there's something that's measurable that we haven't been able to quantify yet. It doesn't mean that I don't think that current measurement standards are the best decision support information available. I'm just not ruling out the possibility that there may be room for improvement. My middle ground does not include buzzwords like "warmth."

 

[egellings]

I find that 8.634 lbs is the exact right amount for one DAC, but another seems to be best at 13.20566 lbs. No blind tests needed of course because it is so clearly obvious.

What to do? I wonder if different metals will make a difference? Well, as we all know, EVERYTHING makes a difference, so might as well get to spending.

How does the weight affect the DAC's performance? Smells a bit oily to me.

 

[kemmler3D]

How does the weight affect the DAC's performance? Smells a bit oily to me.

They're being silly based on a previous post saying their DAC sounded different with a weigh on it. It is not clear if that post was serious, either.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

How does the weight affect the DAC's performance? Smells a bit oily to me.

Jim

 

[egellings]

Jim

Got it!

 

[stultifera navis]

First of all. Objectivism versus subjectivism is a false dichotomy.
If you start a discussion based on a false dicohotomy, the answers are going to suffer
from in the form of strawmen arguments and different understandings of what the words mean.

False Dilemma

When only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exists between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices. Another variety is the false trilemma, which is...

www.logicallyfallacious.com

Strawman Fallacy

Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.

www.logicallyfallacious.com

If you're not a fan of Ayn Rand, you're not an objectivist.

Objectivism | Ayn Rand’s Ideas & Impact

Objectivism, philosophical system identified with the thought of the 20th-century Russian-born American writer Ayn Rand and popularized mainly through her commercially successful novels The Fountainhead (1943) and Atlas Shrugged (1957). Its principal doctrines consist of versions of metaphysical

www.britannica.com

A word that is missing from the discussion is empiricism. I think empiricism is a better word to use than objectivism.
Do the rest of you agree?

Definition, History, Criticism, & Facts

Empiricism, in philosophy, the view that all concepts originate in experience, that all concepts are about or applicable to things that can be experienced, or that all rationally acceptable beliefs or propositions are justifiable or knowable only through experience.

www.britannica.com

 

[stultifera navis]

I would be fascinated to hear a postmodernist take on objectivism vs. subjectivism!

Sure, i can try to explain what a postmodernist would say. First of all nobody calls themself a postmodernist.
Or Richard Rorty did "Rorty is a self-proclaimed postmodernist bourgeois liberal", with to many layers of irony on top.

Richard Rorty (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Before i write to much, there are some questions i want to ask.
Do you know what semiotics is?
Do you know what structuralism is?
Have you read philosophical invesitigations by Wittgenstein?
What do Tarski and Godel have to do with postmodernism?

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Sure, i can try to explain what a postmodernist would say. First of all nobody calls themself a postmodernist.
Or Richard Rorty did "Rorty is a self-proclaimed postmodernist bourgeois liberal", with to many layers of irony on top.

Richard Rorty (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Before i write to much, there are some questions i want to ask.
Do you know what semiotics is?
Do you know what structuralism is?
Have you read philosophical invesitigations by Wittgenstein?
What do Tarski and Godel have to do with postmodernism?

Would not this discussion would be in the realm of philosophy? As such, it may be burdensome and off-topic to the thread here. Would it not be better to communicate such matters by means of private messaging?

Jim

 

[stultifera navis]

Would not this discussion would be in the realm of philosophy? As such, it may be burdensome and off-topic to the thread here. Would it not be better to communicate such matters by means of private messaging?

Jim

Everything discussed in this thread is in the realm of philosophy. Especially epistemology.

Why did't you say the same to the person bringing postmoderism into the debate?

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Everything discussed in this thread is in the realm of philosophy. Especially epistemology.

Why did't you say the same to the person bringing postmoderism into the debate?

AFAIK, no one else offered a full-blown dissertation.

I made a suggestion, and in a manner that I considered polite. Do with it as you will.

Jim

 

[Geert]

I think empiricism is a better word to use than objectivism. Do the rest of you agree?

Since empiricism is also linked to subjectivity, I think it's good for another 36 pages of discussion

 

[stultifera navis]

Since empiricism is also linked to subjectivity, I think it's good for another 36 pages of discussion

That's true. But there is no science without empirical evidence.

"empirical evidence, information gathered directly or indirectly through observation or experimentation
that may be used to confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition."

Empirical evidence | Definition, Examples, Evidentialism, Foundationalism, & Facts

Empirical evidence, information gathered directly or indirectly through observation or experimentation that may be used to confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition. A belief may be said to be justified if

www.britannica.com

 

[Deleted member 21219]

That's true. But there is no science without empirical evidence.

"empirical evidence, information gathered directly or indirectly through observation or experimentation
that may be used to confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition."

Empirical evidence | Definition, Examples, Evidentialism, Foundationalism, & Facts

Empirical evidence, information gathered directly or indirectly through observation or experimentation that may be used to confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition. A belief may be said to be justified if

www.britannica.com

I admit to being biased. Please allow me to emphasize the way I see that statement.

"empirical evidence: information gathered directly or indirectly through observation or experimentation
that may be used to confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition."

Isn't it wonderful to be old, crotchety and recalcitrant?

Jim "Recalcitrant" Taylor

 

[SIY]

First of all. Objectivism versus subjectivism is a false dichotomy.
If you start a discussion based on a false dicohotomy, the answers are going to suffer
from in the form of strawmen arguments and different understandings of what the words mean.

False Dilemma

When only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exists between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices. Another variety is the false trilemma, which is...

www.logicallyfallacious.com

Strawman Fallacy

Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.

www.logicallyfallacious.com

If you're not a fan of Ayn Rand, you're not an objectivist.

Objectivism | Ayn Rand’s Ideas & Impact

Objectivism, philosophical system identified with the thought of the 20th-century Russian-born American writer Ayn Rand and popularized mainly through her commercially successful novels The Fountainhead (1943) and Atlas Shrugged (1957). Its principal doctrines consist of versions of metaphysical

www.britannica.com

A word that is missing from the discussion is empiricism. I think empiricism is a better word to use than objectivism.
Do the rest of you agree?

Definition, History, Criticism, & Facts

Empiricism, in philosophy, the view that all concepts originate in experience, that all concepts are about or applicable to things that can be experienced, or that all rationally acceptable beliefs or propositions are justifiable or knowable only through experience.

www.britannica.com

I've battered that deceased equine for years. Subjective does NOT mean "uncontrolled," and the abuse of language here invariably leads to fuzzy thinking. I've also made that Ayn Rand reference numerous times, and to no effect.

Excuse me, there's a windmill over there that needs tilting.

 

[Hasan Aydin]

That should be easy to test it for yourself. Take a kick drum sample, pass it through the DAC with slow filter and record the output of your amp. Do it one more time but with the sharp filter on this time, and record that response too. Compare the two signals with DeltaWave and check if you see any differences.

Difference between SD Fast and LP Fast filter of a Bass Note.

EDIT: i exported the delta as WAV and looked at it further with a real time spectrum analyser. at the peak it even reaches -55dbfs difference at 120 Hz.
Similar results between Fast and Slow.

 

[SIY]

Was that captured electrically or with a mic?