Naim sound

[BentonF]

A few Naimees or ex-Naim owners here. What do you all make of their CD players? They come in for high praise by the breadth of the hifi community. Good performance, improving sonics up the range, quality components and good service (though some have been retired due to lack of optical drives in short supply).

 

[HansHolland]

View attachment 231330


View attachment 231329A few Naimees or ex-Naim owners here. What do you all make of their CD players? They come in for high praise by the breadth of the hifi community. Good performance, improving sonics up the range, quality components and good service (though some have been retired due to lack of optical drives in short supply).

I once had a Naim cd-player (CD5). Then I moved on to a harddisk player from Naim, the HDX. Now I am using Qobuz via Roon and a RME ADI2 DAC. All big upgrades.

I was happy with my CD5, but I will never go back to CD's.

 

[BentonF]

Guessing the concept of a ‘Naim sound’ is false and no such thing exists.

 

[HansHolland]

Guessing the concept of a ‘Naim sound’ is false and no such thing exists.

have you ever listened to a Naim amp? or other Naim device?

 

[BentonF]

have you ever listened to a Naim amp? or other Naim device?

Yes. Three preamps. The three power amps, CD5 and NDS and NDX. The more expensive the unit the greater the detail but I couldn’t say I heard a trademark or unique sonic signature in Naim vs other stuff I auditioned in that room. Have you heard the CD555 - have you heard this or measured it?

 

[Piere]

Yes, that was the case for a long while. Not so much their special cable but any cable with enough inductance capacitance.

Inductance was just what they favour. But too much speaker cable capacitance made them oscillating, often destroying your tweeters! And most not-Naim speaker cable did. That was long time ago and there was a saying "Naim is a game" those days. But I thought being so special is something of the past. I did read the output impedance is 0.3ohm. That is pretty high for a modern amplifier and can influence colouration as well.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Guessing the concept of a ‘Naim sound’ is false and no such thing exists.

Looks like you’ve never listen to Naim gear, it always sounds hard and harsh. Went to buy a used pair of Neat speakers the vendor was local and said we went to listen to them. He had them packed away and would we like to listen to his system while he got them? It was all Naim kit within minutes Ann said would I turn it down as it was likely to give her a headache. She likes listening to music and has no interest in who made it. Could well understand why she didn’t want any more. Since then have come across it many times, ultra detailed and totally unmusical. In a preview post it was mentioned it has a limited soundstage? To be fair Naim have always said they don’t believe in the concept of soundstage.
There is such a thing as a house sound try comparing Copland to Naim and then say they sound the same.

 

[BentonF]

Looks like you’ve never listen to Naim gear, it always sounds hard and harsh. Went to buy a used pair of Neat speakers the vendor was local and said we went to listen to them. He had them packed away and would we like to listen to his system while he got them? It was all Naim kit within minutes Ann said would I turn it down as it was likely to give her a headache. She likes listening to music and has no interest in who made it. Could well understand why she didn’t want any more. Since then have come across it many times, ultra detailed and totally unmusical. In a preview post it was mentioned it has a limited soundstage? To be fair Naim have always said they don’t believe in the concept of soundstage.
There is such a thing as a house sound try comparing Copland to Naim and then say they sound the same.

If you look above you will see that I have listened to Naim gear as I speak about it above.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Guessing the concept of a ‘Naim sound’ is false and no such thing exists.

Sorry don’t get it? There isn’t any reference to you listening to Naim gear. In my previous post Naim gear was described as being ultra detailed should have said etched.
Guessing suggests you were guessing at the Naim sound?

 

[sergeauckland]

I'm mystified by the frequent suggestions of a 'Naim Sound', as I see nothing in the measurements of the NAC32/NAP250 (the only one I have measurements for) to suggest there should be anything other than neutrality. The RIAA input is -1dB at 20Hz and -0.5dB at 20kHz, so nothing there, line inputs are flatter still, distortion, noise and crosstalk all satisfactorily low, overload margins adequately high and output impedance at 0.18 ohms nothing to get concerned about.

So what would cause the 'Naim Sound'? Wouldn't be the magazines would it...?

S.

 

[Piere]

That "Naim Sound" is something of the past I think, over 20 years ago. At those days Naim amplifiers were prone to instability when not used with the proprietary Naim cables. Giving sibilants to vocals and sometimes an overall gritty sound. Such images can live long...........

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I'm mystified by the frequent suggestions of a 'Naim Sound', as I see nothing in the measurements of the NAC32/NAP250 (the only one I have measurements for) to suggest there should be anything other than neutrality. The RIAA input is -1dB at 20Hz and -0.5dB at 20kHz, so nothing there, line inputs are flatter still, distortion, noise and crosstalk all satisfactorily low, overload margins adequately high and output impedance at 0.18 ohms nothing to get concerned about.

So what would cause the 'Naim Sound'? Wouldn't be the magazines would it...?

S.

No my ears, reading the magazine reviews (although not for a few years) would make you think Naim was beyond reproach.

 

[DSJR]

I'm mystified by the frequent suggestions of a 'Naim Sound', as I see nothing in the measurements of the NAC32/NAP250 (the only one I have measurements for) to suggest there should be anything other than neutrality. The RIAA input is -1dB at 20Hz and -0.5dB at 20kHz, so nothing there, line inputs are flatter still, distortion, noise and crosstalk all satisfactorily low, overload margins adequately high and output impedance at 0.18 ohms nothing to get concerned about.

So what would cause the 'Naim Sound'? Wouldn't be the magazines would it...?

S.

Late reply - loads of higher order distortion, Colloms tested IMD at -70db or so in the early 80's 'CB' era, which could be said to be borderline audible and, in the past, apparently backwards coupling caps in the amp circuit (I was told a leftover from transistor mods in the 60's by a now retired but highly respected west country based amp and radio designer known to some of the UK market - no, not his vocal ex mouthpiece ) which in the older models led to circuit drift and an even harsher sound after some hundreds of hours and leading to the lucrative service and update market for these (refined early PA circuit) amps)!

After Julian Vereker passed, Naim introduced the current cosmetic on their separates stuff and the performance did improve if Stereophile tests are anything to go by (someting like a 10 - 20dB lowering of distortion in fairness). i found th emidrange can be quite delightful now but the punchy bass and slightly grainy highs still exist but to a lesser extent now (yes,m a personal subjective view I know). I'm reliably told by my local Naim salon that they do seem more reliable these days and less likely to 'go off' although it occasionally happens. Plenty of posh but pricy cable and expensive Fraim-racking additions to make your stack even bigger and more impressive and my local audio salon's car park usually has equivalent posh motors parked there that go with this kind of outlay!

Hell, some of their integrated amps actually DO have output inductors on them!!!! - I can't say how different the streaming products are from the now 'legacy' separates which are still bought regularly by older men (usually men) with bulging pension pots but the streaming products have done well for them, despite the odd glitches and the need to regularly update them.

The Statement amp is very clear and very powerful, but it's still a Naim underneath the space age visuals and this into Dynaudio Confidence 60's (a £200k system minus sources) gave me a headache after 3/4 hour or so. the same speakers with Accuphase or Chord Electronics sound fine to me.


The thing is now, I look at all this Naim stuff at ridiculous prices and just don't 'see it' any more. All but hidden on a display shelf with 'square' apertures, lurks currently an all-black Quad Artera set. Three grand or less for the pre and 606 derived power amp and I can guarantee that this pairing would do exactly the same or better than any of the Naim boxes both to the ears as well as the test bench, but they look anonymous and most visitiors wouldn't be aware of their existence in the display. less profit too of course and no future upgrade ladder path.

 

[Westsounds]

PRAT, fans of Naim know it very well. Autosuggestion is a hell of a thing when you're looking at a bit of Naim gear and enjoying a bit of music. Still, it's very nice well made, simplistically styled gear to be looking at IMHO.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Late reply - loads of higher order distortion, Colloms tested IMD at -70db or so in the early 80's 'CB' era, which could be said to be borderline audible and, in the past, apparently backwards coupling caps in the amp circuit (I was told a leftover from transistor mods in the 60's by a now retired but highly respected west country based amp and radio designer known to some of the UK market - no, not his vocal ex mouthpiece ) which in the older models led to circuit drift and an even harsher sound after some hundreds of hours and leading to the lucrative service and update market for these (refined early PA circuit) amps)!

After Julian Vereker passed, Naim introduced the current cosmetic on their separates stuff and the performance did improve if Stereophile tests are anything to go by (someting like a 10 - 20dB lowering of distortion in fairness). i found th emidrange can be quite delightful now but the punchy bass and slightly grainy highs still exist but to a lesser extent now (yes,m a personal subjective view I know). I'm reliably told by my local Naim salon that they do seem more reliable these days and less likely to 'go off' although it occasionally happens. Plenty of posh but pricy cable and expensive Fraim-racking additions to make your stack even bigger and more impressive and my local audio salon's car park usually has equivalent posh motors parked there that go with this kind of outlay!

Hell, some of their integrated amps actually DO have output inductors on them!!!! - I can't say how different the streaming products are from the now 'legacy' separates which are still bought regularly by older men (usually men) with bulging pension pots but the streaming products have done well for them, despite the odd glitches and the need to regularly update them.

The Statement amp is very clear and very powerful, but it's still a Naim underneath the space age visuals and this into Dynaudio Confidence 60's (a £200k system minus sources) gave me a headache after 3/4 hour or so. the same speakers with Accuphase or Chord Electronics sound fine to me.


The thing is now, I look at all this Naim stuff at ridiculous prices and just don't 'see it' any more. All but hidden on a display shelf with 'square' apertures, lurks currently an all-black Quad Artera set. Three grand or less for the pre and 606 derived power amp and I can guarantee that this pairing would do exactly the same or better than any of the Naim boxes both to the ears as well as the test bench, but they look anonymous and most visitiors wouldn't be aware of their existence in the display. less profit too of course and no future upgrade ladder path.

Nice to know it isn’t only me. Went to a HiFi show and took along some of my favourite CDs and vinyl. Just inside the door was a Naim listening room, went in and asked would they play two of my favourite tracks on a CD. They were really helpful guys and ripped the CD played the tracks and like you it gave me a headache. Only stayed for the second track out of politeness.

 

[Westsounds]

Could well understand why she didn’t want any more. Since then have come across it many times, ultra detailed and totally unmusical. In a preview post it was mentioned it has a limited soundstage? To be fair Naim have always said they don’t believe in the concept of soundstage.

To be fair a lot of well-designed 'well-measuring' equipment can sound a bit like that, I actually believe a lot of us don't like listening to this technically flat frequency response. Some of us like a bit of colour and flavour in our music, it gives it more body, tonal richness and perhaps what we perceive to be a more realistic instrument timbre.

 

[Vacceo]

To be fair a lot of well-designed 'well-measuring' equipment can sound a bit like that, I actually believe a lot of us don't like listening to this technically flat frequency response. Some of us like a bit of colour and flavour in our music, it gives it more body, tonal richness and perhaps what we perceive to be a more realistic instrument timbre.

If I wanted all those elements, I'd simply listen to a different source.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

To be fair a lot of well-designed 'well-measuring' equipment can sound a bit like that, I actually believe a lot of us don't like listening to this technically flat frequency response. Some of us like a bit of colour and flavour in our music, it gives it more body, tonal richness and perhaps what we perceive to be a more realistic instrument timbre.

Can understand it ‘different strokes for different folks.’ After that went to a Russell speaker demo and found it too far the other way. My system at the moment (serial box swopper) has the right combination of PRAT without losing the musical thread. Class G Arcam Amp with Kudos X2 speakers a match made in listening Heaven. Had my Nephew over from Columbia, got Alex into HiFi years ago, they’ve got to be trained young. He was round here tying out music he likes and was more than impressed.

 

[sergeauckland]

Late reply - loads of higher order distortion, Colloms tested IMD at -70db or so in the early 80's 'CB' era, which could be said to be borderline audible and, in the past, apparently backwards coupling caps in the amp circuit (I was told a leftover from transistor mods in the 60's by a now retired but highly respected west country based amp and radio designer known to some of the UK market - no, not his vocal ex mouthpiece ) which in the older models led to circuit drift and an even harsher sound after some hundreds of hours and leading to the lucrative service and update market for these (refined early PA circuit) amps)!

Still doesn't explain why the sound should be anything but transparent. -70dB of IMD is still only 0.03%, so inaudible.

It's possible, I accept, that the amplifiers are so drift-prone that they 'go off' after a while, but I've not noticed that in any review, and anyway, wouldn't explain why on dealer demos, people heard all the things they were supposed to with NAIM, using new or nearly new amps. I need convincing that it's anything other than hearsay, repeated ad-nauseum by magazines and now forums.

PRAT indeed...
S.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Still doesn't explain why the sound should be anything but transparent. -70dB of IMD is still only 0.03%, so inaudible.

It's possible, I accept, that the amplifiers are so drift-prone that they 'go off' after a while, but I've not noticed that in any review, and anyway, wouldn't explain why on dealer demos, people heard all the things they were supposed to with NAIM, using new or nearly new amps. I need convincing that it's anything other than hearsay, repeated ad-nauseum by magazines and now forums.

PRAT indeed...
S.

You obviously can’t hear a difference in Naim amp and an old style Arcam Amp. To me they are at opposite ends of the listening experience. Not something I’ve imagined or read in a magazine, just listening to them without an axe to grind either way.