Old DAC Question

[Groove01]

Hi All,

First post (but been lurking for a while)!

I had a general “compatibility” question with regards to old DACs with more modern high Rez file formats, streaming services, etc.

My current DAC is a Classe DAC-1 paired with a transport and I use a Blue Sound Node 2i for the very occasional streaming (also running through the DAC-1).

The transport just crapped out, which has me exploring options and I’m wondering if my current DAC would support higher rez streaming, or if it’s time to move on to the current century - lol.

Note: I’ve read up on this a bit, but not sure I’m grasping all the variables from a file format, compatibility standpoint.

I believe the DAC-1 is uses the Ultra Analog 20bit chips (redbook + HDCD).

Thanks!

 

[gvl]

Looks like a decent device but it maxes out at 48kHz sampling, so you won't be able to play higher sampling rates. Also, I can't quickly find any specifics about this model, but while it uses 20-bits DAC chips these vintage devices often truncate 24-bit words to 16 bits on entry which causes some quality degradation. So I'd say it's not really fit for hi-res tehnically, but if you can make sure it's fed properly dithered 16-bit 44.1 or 48kHz format you won't miss much compared to hi-res played through a modern DAC.

 

[JSmith]

Welcome to ASR.

Classe DAC-1

Some measurements of same if interested;

Classé Audio DAC-1 Measurements and Subjective Impressions (Mid-90s UltraAnalog)

Classé Audio DAC-1 Measurements and Subjective Impressions (Mid-90s UltraAnalog)

www.changstar.com

Looks ok, could be better by 2024 standards... but nothing audible here really;

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB	+0.01, -0.06	Excellent
Noise level, dB (A)	-94.9	Very Good
Dynamic range, dB (A)	94.8	Very Good
THD, %	0.0036	Very Good
THD + Noise, dB (A)	-84.5	Good
IMD + Noise, %	0.0085	Very Good
Stereo crosstalk, dB	-94.6	Excellent
IMD at 10 kHz, %	0.0014	Very Good
General performance		Very Good

JSmith

 

[Groove01]

Thanks guys!

Seems like in simple terms, a modern DAC would offer increased “plug and play” compatibility with newer file formats. However, from a performance standpoint, probably not a huge difference.

That’s helpful. TBH, I don’t have a lot of experience with newer file formats so wasn’t really sure. (A bit of a dinosaur in that regard - lol)

Thanks for the input!

 

[LTig]

My current DAC is a Classe DAC-1 paired with a transport and I use a Blue Sound Node 2i for the very occasional streaming (also running through the DAC-1).

The transport just crapped out,

If you need to replace it there is no need to buy an extensive highend transport. Any disk player with SPDIF Out will do. Just choose the cheapest one which offers all the features you need. Even a $50 DVD Player will do although those lack almost all controls.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Some measurements of same if interested;

Classé Audio DAC-1 Measurements and Subjective Impressions (Mid-90s UltraAnalog)

Classé Audio DAC-1 Measurements and Subjective Impressions (Mid-90s UltraAnalog)

www.changstar.com

Looks ok, could be better by 2024 standards... but nothing audible here really;

Note that these were done in 16/48, though I'm pretty sure a DAC using the (then $$$) UltraAnalog D20400A modules and PMD100 processor should be able to use at least 20 bits out of 24. The DAC modules themselves are specified with a dynamic range of 112 dB, 20-20k unweighted, as well as a THD+N of -102 dB / -100 dB max, with the whole DAC rated at 110 dB and 0.003% (= -90 dB), respectively. The output stage may be prioritizing low noise over distortion, it seems to be breaking a bit of a sweat and is worsening at higher frequencies and as such could possibly do with a better opamp or something.

Levels are a bit weird on this model - 1.52 V for CD / 3.04 V for HDCD on the unbalanced output and (as usual) twice that on the balanced output. Makes me wonder what happens if you feed it 24 bits. Would be a bit of a waste if you needed HDCD material to get the full dynamic range.

Depending on how much use the DAC sees, I would still consider purchasing a more modern model as a daily driver, these UltraAnalog modules weren't exactly known as the epitome of reliability (potted hybrid modules are kind of prone to cooling issues, as Topping PA-5 owners will be able to attest) and I would want to preserve such a precious antique a little longer. Today, finding a model that is preamp-grade is no longer hard or expensive, though not all of them are prioritizing jitter rejection over S/P-DIF (bypassing the DPLL in an ESS DAC will increase the headroom for intersample-overs instead) and the budget end won't sport a volume knob on the device itself.

 

[Groove01]

If you need to replace it there is no need to buy an extensive highend transport. Any disk player with SPDIF Out will do. Just choose the cheapest one which offers all the features you need. Even a $50 DVD Player will do although those lack almost all controls.

Agree, for now I’m using an old Parasound carousel that I had on the shelf. The carousel is a bit tedious TBH and I prefer a single drawer.

The used mkt for transports is pretty bare, either 20+ yrs old or stupid $$$.

I was initially looking at the TEAC 505T, but then saw the Tascam cd200. If I’m just replacing the transport, the Tascam seems sufficient as a spinner.

I can then explore DACs (having not invested much in a transport).

The durability of the Tascam is attractive and from a feature standpoint, I think it would do what I need (spin cd’s).

 

[LTig]

Yes, the Tascam CD200 is my choice as well if my transport fails beyond repair.

 

[Mikig]

I occasionally use old DACs, limited to 16/48. I simply make Roon do the work; in the settings, I limit the frequency and bits and send everything to the DAC. Obviously when the MQA passes you can't hear anything. I'd say it's going very well

 

[Timcognito]

Tested my old MSB Link DAC III with Nelson upgrade (2001?) against my Topping E30 and guess what, the Link DAC out weighs the Topping by 20 lbs and is ~ 8X times size. Can't hear any difference.

On a unrelated note, the E30 is the only device that shuts off on a power outage switching to my Tesla Powerwall II. No other device detects the transition to battery power.

 

[earlevel]

Looks like a decent device but it maxes out at 48kHz sampling, so you won't be able to play higher sampling rates. Also, I can't quickly find any specifics about this model, but while it uses 20-bits DAC chips these vintage devices often truncate 24-bit words to 16 bits on entry which causes some quality degradation. So I'd say it's not really fit for hi-res tehnically, but if you can make sure it's fed properly dithered 16-bit 44.1 or 48kHz format you won't miss much compared to hi-res played through a modern DAC.

Good point, though it seems this one is probably actual 20-bit—8x oversampling with 27-bit accuracy on the filter calculations and -120 dB stop band. There not much reason for a -120 dB stop band if you're going for 16-bit output, you could use a lower order filter.