Omnidirectional speakers

[jim1274]

He made a little money selling them too. LOL
Each to their own, speakers vary so widely in how they sound and the listeners own bias plays a big part.
It just remains IMHO, that any speaker that is going to be reflecting sounds, in a very non-linear fashion, from numerous points
all over the room, just can't be the right way to technically approach things if an accurate reproduction of the recorded source and it's intended soundstage holds any priority in your bias. My subjective listening experiences have also been very supportive of my theories on the subject, but then it just could be my personal bias clouding my listening experience so, make of it what you will.

I had a pair of small magnetic planar speakers on my office desktop some years ago, and ever since then it was always in back of my mind to get the real deal someday. They had very little SPL capability and serious frequency range limitations and a crappy subwoofer, but were compelling—even office vistors commented on the sound. For many years, I have eyeballed some Eminent Technology LFT-8 that I believe use the same panel technology, but knew our cats would run up and down them, no longer an issue. If not for the fact that I’m likely getting a pair of Soundlabs from a good friend, they would already be in the living room. After my positive experience with Omnis, I must try some planars to experience the sound of dipoles. I still greatly enjoy some of my traditional box speakers, but the soundfield of Omnis is captivating to me. I must like them if listening to them 12 hours a day for over a week. I’m probably just repeating myself, so will shut up now.

 

[Keith_W]

Siegfried Linkwitz was a fan of them, but heck, what did he know? Obviously the anti-omni folk know better.

PLUTO-2.1 omni-directional loudspeaker

Not an anti-omni person by any means, in fact I love omnis like MBL's. I would love to see measurements of them though, that is what seems to be lacking.

 

[Sal1950]

Not an anti-omni person by any means, in fact I love omnis like MBL's. I would love to see measurements of them though, that is what seems to be lacking.

Stereophile has measured a number of MBL's.

MBL speaker stereophile - Google Search

 

[Duke]

It just remains IMHO, that any speaker that is going to be reflecting sounds, in a very non-linear fashion, from numerous points
all over the room, just can't be the right way to technically approach things if an accurate reproduction of the recorded source and it's intended soundstage holds any priority in your bias.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "reflecting sounds, in a very non-linear fashion"? Do you mean the frequency response of the off-axis energy (and therefore the frequency response of the reflections) is non-linear; or that the radiation pattern producing those reflections is non-uniform; or that the reflections themselves introduce non-linearities, or something else? Or are you referring to the direct-to-reflected sound ratio being too low with omni-type speakers?

 

[Keith_W]

Stereophile has measured a number of MBL's.

MBL speaker stereophile - Google Search

I have seen those, but those measurements are inadequate. They only cover an arc of 50deg around the speaker, and they present the data in averaged form. I want to see a Spinorama!

And BTW I think a design like an MBL would be more likely to have an even frequency response omnidirectionally than a design like the Duevels. They have panels radiating sound in all directions, as opposed to a single driver firing towards a sphere that aims to disperse the sound. As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure how well different wavelengths will interact with that sphere, which has to be optimized for certain frequency bands in the same way that horns are. The difference is that horns are a well developed technology and the physics is well described. But spheres? I am not so sure.

I am not saying that those spheres won't work. I just want to see proof that it does.

 

[MarkS]

Erin has measured the Linkwitz LX Mini:

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/linkwitz_lx_mini/

Some of his subjective comments:

In my opinion, this speaker shines in the soundstage category. … The soundstage of these speakers was not “confined” or “boxed in” like most speakers I hear. Rather, it was more “open” and the boundaries didn’t have an exact cutoff; they just extended into the space of the room. Something I really dig.

And some subjective comments from the HiFiNews review cited earlier:

If you are unfamiliar with omnidirectional loudspeakers, then a short period of re-adjustment may be necessary. Instead of a succession of musicians and performers set in a soundstage with pinpoint accuracy, these designs offer up a huge swathe of sound across the front of the listening area. … The real strength of the design comes from the image stability it offers. Provided you've positioned the cabinets to take into account unwanted reflections from nearby surfaces, it's surprising the degree to which you can move around your listening area with there being very little change in the speakers' presentation.

https://www.hifinews.com/content/duevel-venus-loudspeaker-page-2

I owned bipolar DefTechs for many years; these are close to omni. I agree with the subjective comments quoted above. In particular, when moving through the room with the speakers, the sense of a solid sound field existing independently of me, the listener, was much stronger than it is with front-firing speakers.

I found the effect quite pleasing (even when just sitting in the main listening position) on the sort large-scale music that I usually prefer, mainy classical orchestral and prog rock.

 

[jim1274]

I have seen those, but those measurements are inadequate. They only cover an arc of 50deg around the speaker, and they present the data in averaged form. I want to see a Spinorama!

And BTW I think a design like an MBL would be more likely to have an even frequency response omnidirectionally than a design like the Duevels. They have panels radiating sound in all directions, as opposed to a single driver firing towards a sphere that aims to disperse the sound. As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure how well different wavelengths will interact with that sphere, which has to be optimized for certain frequency bands in the same way that horns are. The difference is that horns are a well developed technology and the physics is well described. But spheres? I am not so sure.

I am not saying that those spheres won't work. I just want to see proof that it does.

Hope I am not making a fool of myself, but wouldn’t a symmetrical diffusion cone on axis with both drivers as in the Venus be a perfect 360 degree even “omni” dispersion if perfectly aligned? I can see the compromises with drivers offset as in balls (Planets) or pointed cone (Enterpise). Did I stick my foot in my mouth? The small portable Bluetooth speaker that intrigued me enough to buy some Duevels used the stacked vertical driver alignment like the Venus. How much the side by side speaker positioning impacts the sound vs the stacked on axis is beyond my skills to evaluate, but the latter logically seems be better for smoother dispersion. Foot in mouth again?

 

[jim1274]

Erin has measured the Linkwitz LX Mini:

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/linkwitz_lx_mini/

Some of his subjective comments:


And some subjective comments from the HiFiNews review cited earlier:

https://www.hifinews.com/content/duevel-venus-loudspeaker-page-2

I owned bipolar DefTechs for many years; these are close to omni. I agree with the subjective comments quoted above. In particular, when moving through the room with the speakers, the sense of a solid sound field existing independently of me, the listener, was much stronger than it is with front-firing speakers.

I found the effect quite pleasing (even when just sitting in the main listening position) on the sort large-scale music that I usually prefer, especially classical orchestral and prog rock.

That ability to offer a wide area of fairly consistent sound was what caught my attention when I first saw those Peak 360 portable speakers—I was an early supporter when they were pre-production on indiegogo. I thought that seems perfect when moving around within a workspace compared to forward firing speakers. The Duevels are much the same, but a larger speaker and in stereo. When I first got the smaller Planets, I earlier in the thread mentioned hooking up in my garage. Even with both cars inside and neither speaker visible, more or less buried, they still sounded pretty good. Try that with a forward firing speaker buried out of line of sight and see how they sound. What could possible match the placement versatility of that?

Now I am really sounding like a fanboy…hopefully not like a moron too…

 

[Flaesh]

One guy in Israel made himself "planets" from overturned old cheap two-way Infinitys and four balls. W\o crossover modification. He's pretty happy with his "sound field"))

 

[Flaesh]

I was just mulling over the idea of offering to send my Planets to the forum, if any interest, to run them through the testing gauntlet, but think that would be counterproductive. The Enterprise is so much more speaker in every way

I think it's good idea to send Planets. Later, when you buy Bella Luna or Sirius, you can send Enterprise too.
BTW Planets and Enterprise aren't "true" omnis. Until now I thought the Enterprise was something like Bella Luna\Sirius.

 

[Newman]

I’ve spent countless hours on the forum, perusing 100+ threads and many hundreds of posts, so figured time to sign up and contribute. This has been an invaluable resource in my recent major changes in several systems.

Welcome! It’s a great forum to learn a lot about sound reproduction.

Anyway…I have some recent experience with Duevel Omni speakers, specifically the Planets and Enterprises, both purchased this year.

… I liked them [Planets] enough to buy an up-model, the Enterprise, thinking it would be similar to the Planets but with more SPL and lower frequency extension, but they are so much more than that. At first, with a very modest signal chain in front of them, I was a little disappointed, not enough more than Planets to justify the price jump. In working with the distributor, he told me they needed and would greatly benefit from a better amp and signal chain.

That is typical ‘distributor disinformation’ and further time reading on ASR will help flesh out how and why.

Well, that made more of a difference than I expected, and came alive and had exceptional sound then. I purchased a Bemchmark AHB2 amp, streaming lossless Tidal/Qobuz at best resolution available through a better DAC and was floored.

It would be interesting to know more about your original amp, to help understand whether your observation above was entirely placebo effect, or related to true differences in the sound waves.

…If anyone is curious and wants to test out the Omni sound, I don’t think they will regret dipping their toes in with the relatively modest priced Planets. They are a bargain to my mind, and I’m a very value oriented audio guy (except for the splurge on the Benchmark amp—no regrets though). Check out the reviews floating around—every one I saw was pretty glowing and praise was deserved from my time with them.

Further time reading on ASR will also help flesh out how and why “checking out the reviews floating around” is abysmal advice, if one wants to avoid being misled in relation to hifi gear. It’s one of the main reasons ASR was created.

As you persist with omni speakers, the phenomenon of personal adaptation will take hold, and you will care less and less about their shortcomings. But they are, indeed, a lower-tier solution for sound reproduction generally, while still capable of being very satisfying. The “omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available” thread starts with a post full of classic omni fan misconceptions and misdirections. Over hundreds of posts and much disputation, a more balanced view emerges of their real place in the audio pantheon.

cheers

 

[MarkS]

I always like to quote Floyd Toole.

2022:

Omni speakers are playback manipulations, and if you like them, fine. If not, also fine.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-preference-score.31454/page-47#post-1122850

2016:

Some reflected sound is good. Sometimes a lot of the right kind is even better. Concert halls are deliberately reflective, highly reverberant, spaces. This is my “classical” listening room in our custom-built Canadian home. Conceived as a space for enjoying large, spatially involving, works of music, it was the largest “concert hall” I could afford at the time. The very neutral, essentially omnidirectional, Mirage M1s “became” the orchestra and the room became a seamless extension of the recorded space. It provided a very satisfying, involving, experience.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation

 

[jim1274]

I think it's good idea to send Planets. Later, when you buy Bella Luna or Sirius, you can send Enterprise too.
BTW Planets and Enterprise aren't "true" omnis. Until now I thought the Enterprise was something like Bella Luna\Sirius.

Well, I’m far from done on this Omni adventure—plowing through another forum thread on Omni “best design available” now for options beyond Duevel. Maybe some Morrison Audio ones next for the living room…

The only thing that may deter my Omni journey is a pair of Soundlabs—trying to work out a way to safely ship a pair cross country (without the shipping containers) from a good friend right now.

I have listened to conventional box speakers for 50 years and, at least so far, the Omni “sound” is more pleasing to me. Maybe every room will have Omnis when it’s all done? I really liked the Planets outside on the deck, just not nearly enough bass and SPL capability for me. Planets worked really well in the garage, though…

 

[Sal1950]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "reflecting sounds, in a very non-linear fashion"? Do you mean the frequency response of the off-axis energy (and therefore the frequency response of the reflections) is non-linear; or that the radiation pattern producing those reflections is non-uniform; or that the reflections themselves introduce non-linearities, or something else? Or are you referring to the direct-to-reflected sound ratio being too low with omni-type speakers?

It is pretty much all of the above.
Even a omni that is completely linear in a 360 pattern, the reflecting surfaces are going to reflect in a completely non-linear fashion.
I've always believed in taking the room out of the equation as much as possible.
Put on a set of good headphones to reveal the clarity that room reflections blur.
YMMV

 

[jim1274]

I always like to quote Floyd Toole.

2022:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-preference-score.31454/page-47#post-1122850

2016:

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation

I wonder if my living room acoustics are particularly well suited for Omni? It’s not overly damped, but probably better than 99% of living rooms at breaking up reflections. I could go into detail, but wood (redwood) paneling walls are less reflective than drywall, my sloped ceiling is redwood 2 bys on edge, so a groove every 1.5”, large windows across the whole left wall but wood blinds to break that up, huge limestone fireplace on the right wall that is very non-reflective, the front wall filled with AVR rack, a big bookshelf type TV stand with built in center speaker, SVS cylinder sub with fuzzy cover—only reflective surface is my TV. Maybe I already mentioned all this…too many active thread “balls in the air”…

If rear corners matter, bet this is good at breaking up reflections:

 

[Flaesh]

not nearly enough bass and SPL capability for me

Try Sirius or so. 12"-15" woofer + compression driver. And + subs. I once listened to omnipolar speakers with RCF 12" coax and cone reflector..

“best design available”

Thanks. I wanted to find this thread the day before yesterday, but I couldn’t))

A bunch of pretty small omnipolar wooden things with no dynamics or bass https://www.decwaretinyradials.com/

 

[jim1274]

It is pretty much all of the above.
Even a omni that is completely linear in a 360 pattern, the reflecting surfaces are going to reflect in a completely non-linear fashion.
I've always believed in taking the room out of the equation as much as possible.
Put on a set of good headphones to reveal the clarity that room reflections blur.
YMMV

Never really considered putting a set of cans in the speaker testing rotation to compare clarity. I would never listen to headphones in the living room no matter how much clarity was gained, though.

I learned back in 1984 how critical the room acoustics and interaction is. Went to just about every audio dealer in Chicago area with a friend to audition speakers for purchase. After it was finished, we both agreed on the same one, the relatively modest 2-way, Energy 22 Reference Monitors. That audition was the only place who clearly had done extensive room treatment and fine tuning, I think a huge part of why they bested all comers that day. (Had amother friend and co-worker who built a recording studio in his home, so I instantly noticed the strategic placement of Sonex in their dedicated listening room) There was nothing else in the room but the speakers, a couple chairs for the listeners, and a small area in the back for the reproduction chain. I recall that being high end gear, but only specifically recall for sure they used a Linn turntable. I think the front end was Naim.

We listened to all kinds of much more expensive speakers that day, but all were in showrooms with several speakers (or more) and no thought for room acoustics at all. Nothing sounded as good as the Energy 22s, certainly not because the 22s were necessarily better—I’m sure many of the others would have been outstanding in that room that was finely tuned.

 

[jim1274]

Try Sirius or so. 12"-15" woofer + compression driver. And + subs. I once listened to omnipolar speakers with RCF 12" coax and cone reflector..

Thanks. I wanted to find this thread the day before yesterday, but I couldn’t))

A bunch of pretty small omnipolar wooden things with no dynamics or bass https://www.decwaretinyradials.com/

I was talking SPL/low end using Planets outside for deck/poolside use. Something that expensive like Sirius is not going outside unless you are maybe Bill Gates…

That said, I did run a feed out there for a subwoofer, just in case. Even with a sub taking over for the low end, I’m not sure if that would be enough SPL with the Planets. Hmmm..might have to try that though..

I actually talked to HSU and SVS about outdoor application—-they rhought I was some kind of nut case. “Oh no…you can’t do that!” Think they pointed me to some JBL pro outdoor subs, that I recall looking at, but didn’t like for some reason.

 

[Sal1950]

If rear corners matter, bet this is good at breaking up reflections:

I don't know how that tower effects the room acoustics
But I bet it would be a cats paradise.

Never really considered putting a set of cans in the speaker testing rotation to compare clarity. I would never listen to headphones in the living room no matter how much clarity was gained, though.

I'm not a big headphone guy, but they do drastically illuminate how taking the room out of the equation effects the presentation.

I learned back in 1984 how critical the room acoustics and interaction is.

Absolutely, most everything before the speakers in HiFi reproduction are solved problems.
If your interest is getting the equivalent of a straight wire with gain back to the mixing board, paying attention to the components
measured performance will tell you all you need to know. All that's then left in the variables are the speakers, the room, and their interface.
From that point on you can work towards building for accurate reproduction, or build to a personal preference,
Your choice.

 

[jim1274]

I don't know how that tower effects the room acoustics
But I bet it would be a cats paradise.


I'm not a big headphone guy, but they do drastically illuminate how taking the room out of the equation effects the presentation.


Absolutely, most everything before the speakers in HiFi reproduction are solved problems.
If your interest is getting the equivalent of a straight wire with gain back to the mixing board, paying attention to the components
measured performance will tell you all you need to know. All that's then left in the variables are the speakers, the room, and their interface.
From that point on you can work towards building for accurate reproduction, or build to a personal preference,
Your choice.

The cats never bothered with the lamp, only because no really good landing spot. Any flat surface will be landed on. Their favorite spot is behind or top of power amps if you give even the smallest of openings to squeeze through. They have even thought about balancing on the Planet “balls” or even the Enterprise reflective gizmo tops that are flat.

I think my front end is “solved”. Benchmark DAC3 direct USB connect to Roon core, Benchmark AHB2 amp, Roon serving Tidal or Quobuz in highest resolution available, or hires files.