Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Vincent Kars]

 

[dlovesmusic]

The list above have pretty much captured most if not all of the “usual suspects” when it comes to shrills and hypes…

 

[Jim Taylor]

I absolutely love the sound.

Competently designed electronics - especially DACs - have no "sound". If you love what you hear, you love the music, not the circuitry.

In my opinion, for $2,700 you get a $10,000 Dac.

For $2,700, you get ripped of by at about $2,000. Peruse the review results for Dacs here , and you'll see what I mean.

The reviewers are gushing over it.

Just because delusional marketing people gush over something doesn't make it of any greater value or utility. The way to evaluate an electronic device is: 1) Run a suite of tests and measurements. This will tell you what it does. 2) Compare it to other devices with similar levels of performance on the market. This will tell you what it's worth.

Believe me, there's no DAC that has a competitive market value of $2700, much less $10,000.

Jim

 

[Ken Tajalli]

It's pretty!
ASR should be the last place to show it off though.
I bet if I take out the innards & replace it with a $500 quality DAC, you wouldn't be much wiser listening to it.
But, hey, you got the money, and it is an odd, unique good looking device.
Enjoy it.

 

[StandardModel]

Competently designed electronic - especially DACs - have no "sound". If you love what you hear, you love the music, not the circuitry.



For $2,700, you get ripped of by at least $2,000. Peruse the review results for Dacs here , and you'll see what I mean.



Just because delusional marketing people gush over something doesn't make it of any greater value or utility. The way to evaluate an electronic device is: 1) Run a suite of tests and measurements. This will tell you what it does. 2) Compare it to other devices with similar levels of performance on the market. This will tell you what it's worth.

Believe me, there's no DAC that has a competitive market value of $2700, much less $10,000.

Jim

Jim,

I'm anxious for Amir to review one. I'll leave it up to you to send one in to him. I have a bit of knowledge in this area as I'm an electrical engineer and patent attorney. I've been doing this for 60 years so I also have a little experience. In theory all amplifiers are wires with gain and all D to A converters are 100% accurate so completely neutral. Then the real world intrudes. I'm not one of these people who buys cables braided by virgins but there sure are component differences. I (and most everybody else) can tell the difference between an AKM chip and an ESS chip and more particularly R2R ladder Dacs. They all have a different sound regardless of noise or frequency response measurements. Perhaps it's the harmonics but they definitely sound different. I agree with you that the usual suspects hype the latest bling and we all should be very skeptical of their reviews. I'm comparing the LAiV Harmony to my Gustard r26 r2r Dac which is no slouch. To my ears, the LAiV sounds better. Confirmation bias? Maybe. Time will tell.
YMMV.

StandardModel

 

[Greenman]

I'm comparing the LAiV Harmony to my Gustard r26 r2r Dac which is no slouch. To my ears, the LAiV sounds better. Confirmation bias? Maybe. Time will tell.

As a fellow R26 owner I’d be interested in which areas you find the LAiV better and vice verca. I think the R26 is fantastic but I do have my views on where its weaknesses lie, in particular compaired to my (significantly more expensive) Vinyl and CD sources.

 

[threni]

Confirmation bias? Maybe. Time will tell.

Well, that or you simply stating whether your tests were blind or meaningless.

 

[DMill]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spending $2700 on a DAC. The error is thinking it sounds better.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Jim,

I'm anxious for Amir to review one. I'll leave it up to you to send one in to him. I have a bit of knowledge in this area as I'm an electrical engineer and patent attorney. I've been doing this for 60 years so I also have a little experience. In theory all amplifiers are wires with gain and all D to A converters are 100% accurate so completely neutral. Then the real world intrudes. I'm not one of these people who buys cables braided by virgins but there sure are component differences. I (and most everybody else) can tell the difference between an AKM chip and an ESS chip and more particularly R2R ladder Dacs. They all have a different sound regardless of noise or frequency response measurements. Perhaps it's the harmonics but they definitely sound different. I agree with you that the usual suspects hype the latest bling and we all should be very skeptical of their reviews. I'm comparing the LAiV Harmony to my Gustard r26 r2r Dac which is no slouch. To my ears, the LAiV sounds better. Confirmation bias? Maybe. Time will tell.
YMMV.

StandardModel

If you can identify differences in a rigorously controlled double-blind test to a statistically significant degree, then those differences exist. IOW, they are above the threshold of hearing. OTOH, if you cannot identify those differences to a statistically significant degree, then they do not exist; IOW, they are below the threshold of hearing.

Neither beliefs nor simple assertion constitute proof, no matter how desperately we desire to believe otherwise.

This video provides you with the necessary information on double-blind testing.

Jim

 

[StandardModel]

As a fellow R26 owner I’d be interested in which areas you find the LAiV better and vice verca. I think the R26 is fantastic but I do have my views on where its weaknesses lie, in particular compaired to my (significantly more expensive) Vinyl and CD sources.

I have two alternate inputs to the Dacs. First is my Rose HiFi RS 130 and the second is a Bacch4Mac digital processor patented by Princeton University and marketed through Theoretica Applied Physics. They are both interesting inputs with very different sound. I'm addicted to two features. The first is sound stage (height, width and depth)and the second is accuracy of reproduction meaning the conversion has to be able to handle frequency transients very, very quickly. Neither of these are easy to do electrically. In theory it's easy you just have an infinite power supply and you can get completely vertical transients. In the real world, these things don't exist. Everything is a compromise for cost, etc. Just ask the "value engineers". After all isn't a Toyota the same as a Lexus? A $500 dollar Dac might be good and a $2,700 Dac might be bad but the bigger budget gives the designer a lot more options to achieve a good result. For me the difference is in accuracy and clarity.

StandardModel

 

[StandardModel]

If you can identify differences in a rigorously controlled double-blind test to a statistically significant degree, then those differences exist. IOW, they are above the threshold of hearing. OTOH, if you cannot identify those differences to a statistically significant degree, then they do not exist; IOW, they are below the threshold of hearing.

Neither beliefs nor simple assertion constitute proof, no matter how desperately we desire to believe otherwise.

This video provides you with the necessary information on double-blind testing.

Jim

Chacun à son goût.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Foe me the difference is in accuracy and clarity.

Chacun à son goût.

Regarding matters of taste, you are absolutely correct!
Regarding matters associated with reality, however, the standard is scientifically controlled evidence, not opinion nor assertion.

We have had, for quite a long time, posters asserting that they could hear (or had heard) certain things , always under uncontrolled circumstances. When asked to prove that the differences were real by virtue of a double-blind test, they either refused or failed the test.

Bias can mislead us in powerful ways, especially under uncontrolled conditions! This applies to you, to me, and to everyone in the human race.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jim

 

[StandardModel]

Jim,

I haven't done double blind testing and don't purport to have done so. I'm not desperate to prove anything to anyone. There isn't just a threshold of hearing there is a band of frequencies that the ears perceive. Also, don't forget about bone conduction. This also has an influence on sound perception. We've all seen this discussion ad nauseam over the years. I do appreciate your point of view.

StandardModel

 

[VintageFlanker]

The reviewers are gushing over it.

The reviewers you list are gushing about just anything they receive for review.

In my opinion, for $2,700 you get a $10,000 Dac.

Doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when there are absolutely terrible 10k$ DACs out there and perfectly fine 100$ ones.

Glad you're satisfied with your purchase, but, again, let's see how this would perform on the bench !

Chacun à son goût.

What that supposed to mean ?

 

[oleg87]

the second is accuracy of reproduction meaning the conversion has to be able to handle frequency transients very, very quickly. Neither of these are easy to do electrically. In theory it's easy you just have an infinite power supply and you can get completely vertical transients

What on earth are you talking about? You don't need to do any such thing. "vertical transients" is a nonsense phrase - any real world signal is band-limited. It just needs to be "vertical" enough, and in electronics terms, the highest frequencies humans can hear are glacially slow.

 

[StandardModel]

The reviewers you list are gushing about just anything they receive for review.

Doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when there are absolutely terrible 10k$ DACs out there and perfectly fine 100$ ones.

Glad you're satisfied with your purchase, but, again, let's see how this would perform on the bench !


What that supposed to mean ?

It means each to his own taste.
In the words of physicists, that which is not prohibited by the laws of physics is possible. I am a believer in science but I wouldn't categorically state that A is better or worse than B without hard evidence. Some on this forum are saying just that without having performed that test. I've performed an admittedly inferior listening test between two Dacs. This type of test is inferior compared to a double blind test but if I compare that result to a conclusion without a test at all which has more evidence? The one with no test or the one with a less than perfect test. As is said in fables "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king". My point was as an electronics designer you have a lot more freedom to design a better product when you are given a bigger budget. It's no guarantee, but money helps. I mean no disrespect to Jim and he may well be right but until a good double blind test is performed between a $100 Dac and the LAiV neither of us can say for certain which is better, the $100 Dac or the $2,700 Dac.

 

[StandardModel]

What on earth are you talking about? You don't need to do any such thing. "vertical transients" is a nonsense phrase - any real world signal is band-limited. It just needs to be "vertical" enough, and in electronics terms, the highest frequencies humans can hear are glacially slow.

If you don't know what a vertical transient is then you haven't spent much time in front of an oscilloscope looking at square waves.

 

[allmanfan]

I have yet to get an answer when I ask if DAC's have improved since they were introduced in 1983?...also do all DAC chips sound the same?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I don't know what a vertical transient is, either.
let us know.

 

[restorer-john]

I have yet to get an answer when I ask if DAC's have improved since they were introduced in 1983?...also do all DAC chips sound the same?

Audio D/A converters have been around long before 1983. And yes, they have improved immensely. No, not all D/A converters (and their implementation) sound the same.

Generally, any digital consumer product from the very first CD players sounded truly amazing. Those 1st generaton machines still sound excellent in 2024.

Have a look here at the PDF I attached:

Emotiva ERC-4 CD Player (DAC) Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the DAC portion of the Emotiva ERC-4 CD player. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $649. The display lights up in classic, intense dark blue colors of Emotiva. I am not a fan of it as it is old fashioned. Not much functionality is here...

www.audiosciencereview.com