Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Objectivist01]

Hi,

No offense meant...

If you really felt insulted, I can assure there was no mean to offend you :-(

As we had about the same questions, and as I have been flamed for those, after it turned out that I was just expressing myself badly, I found it somewhat funny that somebody else came up with the same questions...
So, to create a little distraction I wanted to make a small joke.

I am awfully sorry if you felt offended and I ofer my apologies for it...

Regards.

No worries! But i like to be an objevtive person recently. Over the time, i was spoiled by reading subjective reviews. The reason for joining herr for me is to learn how each parameters are affective subjective qualities of sound. I have some biases which i want to get rid of!

 

[Objectivist01]

No. It's all in your head BTW. I have both, performed sighted volume matched A/B and they both sound identically to each other when used as pure DACs (i.e. condition no load) to my Schiit Saga preamp

How did you bypass the headphone amp part of mojo and apple dac amp ? Esentially they are integrated. So arent you hearing always the headphone amps also rather than just the dac part alone?

 

[majingotan]

How did you bypass the headphone amp part of mojo and apple dac amp ? Esentially they are integrated. So arent you hearing always the headphone amps also rather than just the dac part alone?

Mojo has a 3V line out mode that you can vary to 2V or even 1V with 4 clicks down and 6-7 clicks while the apple DAC will act like a standalone DAC when plugged to a preamp. Under no load conditions, the headphone amp part does little to nothing since there's very little current on the load. Thus you minimize the differences between the two headphone amplification stage because the signal (or current in this case) is NOT being amplified. A standalone DAC also has an analog stage, but they're not designed to output the current needed to drive headphones as they lack sufficient current amplification stage.

 

[Jimbob54]

Mojo has a 3V line out mode that you can vary to 2V or even 1V with 4 clicks down and 6-7 clicks while the apple DAC will act like a standalone DAC when plugged to a preamp. Under no load conditions, the headphone amp part does little to nothing since there's very little current on the load. Thus you minimize the differences between the two headphone amplification stage because the signal (or current in this case) is NOT being amplified. A standalone DAC also has an analog stage, but they're not designed to output the current needed to drive headphones as they lack sufficient current amplification stage.

Which, when returning to the thread topic, boils down to this:

The DAC portion of both devices is audibly indistinguishable. The Mojo is the more competent (or at least capable of driving a wider range of cans) headphone amplifier given higher power . At 30 or 40 times the price

 

[Objectivist01]

Mojo has a 3V line out mode that you can vary to 2V or even 1V with 4 clicks down and 6-7 clicks while the apple DAC will act like a standalone DAC when plugged to a preamp. Under no load conditions, the headphone amp part does little to nothing since there's very little current on the load. Thus you minimize the differences between the two headphone amplification stage because the signal (or current in this case) is NOT being amplified. A standalone DAC also has an analog stage, but they're not designed to output the current needed to drive headphones as they lack sufficient current amplification stage.

So any headphone jack can be called as a dac ?

 

[Julf]

So any headphone jack can be called as a dac ?

Any device that accepts digital data and has a headphone jack contains a DAC. It might contain lots of other stuff too.

 

[Jimbob54]

So any headphone jack can be called as a dac ?

Absolutely not. The Mojo (and the Apple dongle) have a DAC chip and a headphone amp in one convenient package. The headphone output on an analog only amplifier is just that.

 

[Jimbob54]

Any device that accepts digital data and has a headphone jack contains a DAC. It might contain lots of other stuff too.

I think the 3.5mm socket is so entrenched in peoples minds as being "the headphone socket" that some people forget its just a type of output socket. Its what is behind it that determines what should be plugged into it. I sometimes get the confusion. Other times, not so much.

 

[Objectivist01]

Absolutely not. The Mojo (and the Apple dongle) have a DAC chip and a headphone amp in one convenient package. The headphone output on an analog only amplifier is just that.

Then how do you bypass the headphone amp section to test the dacs or mojo and Apple dongle? Aren’t we measuring the headphone amps of both the devices too?

 

[SIY]

Then how do you bypass the headphone amp section to test the dacs or mojo and Apple dongle? Aren’t we measuring the headphone amps of both the devices too?

Yes, so?

 

[Jimbob54]

Then how do you bypass the headphone amp section to test the dacs or mojo and Apple dongle? Aren’t we measuring the headphone amps of both the devices too?

You did read @majingotan answer the first time you asked, didn't you? Post #1263 above.

 

[Objectivist01]

You did read @majingotan answer the first time you asked, didn't you? Post #1263 above.

Yes, so?

So can we call mojo and apple dongle a dac like odac?

 

[SIY]

So can we call mojo and apple dongle a dac like odac?

Yes, it's a DAC. Digits go in one end and analog comes out the other.

 

[Objectivist01]

then why do we need devices like a odac if this is already doing both the duties?

 

[SIY]

I think you need to edit so it doesn't look like you're quoting me.

Apple dongles use USB or Lightning for inputs and have no hardware controls. If you need other kinds of inputs or extra controls or a more powerful headphone driver, you can buy an ODAC or whatever else suits your requirements. That's why I own an ADI-2 Pro FS; it has other features that I use.

 

[Jimbob54]

User preference. Functionality. Appearance. Perceived value differences. Build quality.

Why buy optional extras on a car? Why, for that matter, buy anything other than the cheapest car big enough for your requirements?

 

[Jimbob54]

I think you need to edit so it doesn't look like you're quoting me.

Apple dongles use USB or Lightning for inputs and have no hardware controls. If you need other kinds of inputs or extra controls or a more powerful headphone driver, you can buy an ODAC or whatever else suits your requirements. That's why I own an ADI-2 Pro FS; it has other features that I use.

Plus, bragging rights

 

[KeithPhantom]

To address the main point, I first start by saying that I understand them and that is normal to expect that any change in the chain to yield a difference, thing that I find normal. Afterwards, I start explaining how the differences that are present are so small that are indetectable by humans, the scale of them is below any threshold or any human outlier that they should be transparent if they are well designed and implemented. By first acknowledging the fact that they bothered to express their opinion and empathizing with them I have experienced that those that claim that there are "sound signatures" will be more open to listening to what you have to say and will value your feedback.

Even though I like science and use it to explain the world around me, I try to approach people as people with biases and opinion, without judging them for their lack of knowledge or their refusal to accept it, in the end, the best you can do is present the facts and let the other person take its own conclusion.

 

[Jimbob54]

To address the main point, I first start by saying that I understand them and that is normal to expect that any change in the chain to yield a difference, thing that I find normal. Afterwards, I start explaining how the differences that are present are so small that are indetectable by humans, the scale of them is below any threshold or any human outlier that they should be transparent if they are well designed and implemented. By first acknowledging the fact that they bothered to express their opinion and empathizing with them I have experienced that those that claim that there are "sound signatures" will be more open to listening to what you have to say and will value your feedback.

Even though I like science and use it to explain the world around me, I try to approach people as people with biases and opinion, without judging them for their lack of knowledge or their refusal to accept it, in the end, the best you can do is present the facts and let the other person take its own conclusion.

A scenario played out a few hundred times on this thread and a few billion on this site.

I even try not to think of them as "them"

 

[Objectivist01]

Plus, bragging rights

I never can afford a rme device. But had managed to get a mojo before and had sold it some time back to get a dac and thx amp. Then i did not do it as i wasnt completely sure why i felt mojo better. Lot of layering in the drums and cymbals even voices fused together on the apple dac was easily serperstely hearable and so on. I guess it had power resrves that let me hear those layere more easily. I think before jumping in i should just het atransparent more powerful amp to see if the diference was just the power. I think an atom would do it for my beoplay h6 headphone.