Should an extra 11db of Dynamic Range in a audio interface be audibly noticeable?

[jonwb]

Hi... thanks to some Julian Krause reviews, I'm pondering the idea of upgrading my 9 yr old Audient interface to a newer Audient with better specs. My current model has D/A conversion which results in a dynamic range of 114dB for both its Line and Headphone outputs. The newer Audients now boast dynamic ranges of over 125dB for all outputs. Audient has also improved their headphone amp wattage, which is a big plus for my mid-impedance headphones.

Question is... given the limitations of human hearing, would an improvement in this upper area of Dynamic Range be audibly noticeable?

 

[Audiofire]

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[sam_adams]

Ask yourself if the increase in the dynamic range of the device is going to change the dynamic range of the program material you are listening to.

 

[Audiofire]

Red Book specifications are practically the audibility thresholds that are needed for music releases, anything over 90 dB dynamic range is fine.

 

[DVDdoug]

-114 dB is REALLY quiet. There's an experiment you can do with Audacity to get a feel for this -

Open a file in Audacity and turn up the volume "reasonably loud".

Run Audacity's Amplify effect in steps of -10 or -20dB at a time (to attenuate rather than amplify) and when you get down to around -60dB, and if you hear anything, probably all you'll hear is amplifier hiss. ...You may have to go lower but you won't have to go to -100dB before the program is inaudible.

 

[Blumlein 88]

DDVdoug gave you a good experiment to try. You call also try this file attached in this post.

Just how bad do dacs have to be before we can actually here them?

ASRers I just want to tap into your combined knowledge:- Just how bad do dacs have to be before we can actually discern a difference. There is poor engineering which I believe everyone here abhors but actual audibility? This is for one of my interminable blog articles so I will quite...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Some loud music mixed -56 db down from average level of the main file. See if you can hear it. The main file has plenty of quiet parts.

OTOH, you know you want it and more dynamic range is not a negative.

 

[KSTR]

The main thing you have to ask yourself is whether your total system's dynamic range was actually ever limited by the DAC. In most practical cases, it's not. The moment you connect several pieces of gear with unbalanced interconnects you can easily loose 20dB, sometimes 50dB or more (when you're having any sort of "ground loop" scenario).

 

[AnalogSteph]

Which audio interface exactly would the current one be? iD22, iD14 MkI?

If memory serves there have been some changes in the headphone output impedance department, so this may be audible if the cans are sufficiently impedance-critical (again, which model?). It's still 22 ohms in the newer models though, and they're more something for mid-high impedance cans in general. Note that full output may only be available on a type-C USB port in the iD4/14 MkII, which can be annoying as there is no extra USB ports for power like a number of other interfaces have.

 

[Audiofire]

In other words, your audio interface has enough dB if the volume is loud enough.

 

[Music1969]

People are forgetting , you do want that extra, if doing EQ/DSP where you need to eat up some dynamic range for digital headroom management....

some more fat is good

 

[jonwb]

Which audio interface exactly would the current one be? iD22, iD14 MkI?

If memory serves there have been some changes in the headphone output impedance department, so this may be audible if the cans are sufficiently impedance-critical (again, which model?). It's still 22 ohms in the newer models though, and they're more something for mid-high impedance cans in general. Note that full output may only be available on a type-C USB port in the iD4/14 MkII, which can be annoying as there is no extra USB ports for power like a number of other interfaces have.

I currently use an Audient iD22 with Senn HD560s. Considering the iD14 mk2 or iD24. I have a Type-C motherboard connection if needed.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I currently use an Audient iD22 with Senn HD560s.

https://support.audient.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000719803-iD-Interface-Specification-Comparison-Chart-As-Measured-in-Real-World-Use

Can do +17.2 dBu into 600 ohms and +11 dBu into 60 ohms. Estimated max output into HD560S is ca. +15 dBu (~4.5 Vrms), which at (HD560S spec) 110 dB SPL / 1 V translates to ~123 dB SPL peak. More than loud enough.
Output impedance apparently is approx. 50 ohms, which gets you to about a 1 dB deviation compare to an ideal 0-ohm output on a HD560S (measured 133/224 ohms min/max). That's not perfect but still decent.
Noise level should be +18 dBu - 114 dBu(A) - 2.77 dBu = -88.77 dBu(A) or -90.98 dBV(A), translating to (HD560S spec) 110 dB SPL / 1 V - 91 dBV(A) = +9 dB SPL(A) worth of noise... generally speaking, anything << +20 dB SPL worth of uncorrelated noise in headphones is inaudible.

Overall, I don't see any major issues in this pairing. You could run the headphone output into a Topping L30 II or similar to alleviate the output impedance issue and drive anything from IEMs to planars.

Have you had to replace that one electrolytic cap yet that likes to fail on these (a 22µF in front of a DC/DC if memory serves, which I suspect is undersized), causing hiss and low output? The entire design appears to be a bit... thermally challenged, and the seemingly cheap caps are not helping matters.

#66 Audient iD22 teardown

Despite having hoped to nab an Audient interface for some time now, only quite recently did i manage to get my hands on one. Since i'm a cyn...

khronscave.blogspot.com

#67 Audient iD22 part 2: the repair

And now, getting back to the issue affecting this unit... As pointed out in the ad, the LT3439 apparently used to have a piddly little h...

khronscave.blogspot.com

Mind you, I suspect the competing Focusrite Forte (similar converter complement and all but with a PGA input stage) had some similar issues... mine starts to go into a boot loop after being operated on USB for a while but works indefinitely when using the external +12V wall wart. Likely why that model was abandoned driver-wise very quickly (the later Clarett series had similar internals in a more conventional design). If you're stuffing a bunch of fairly high-strung converters and analog electronics into a compact case without adequate ventilation, things invariably get kind of toasty.

I would have few reservations about using an iD22 that works properly, its converters still are above average even by modern standards (there's not a lot of ADCs that can beat a PCM4220, and PCM1798s aren't something to sneeze at either), but it seems to be the kind of device that would appreciate a thorough renovation and the occasional mod to make the most of its converters. For a modern replacement in the same league, you'd have to go with an iD24, although the iD14 MkII is good, too.

I have a Type-C motherboard connection if needed.

The problem is that often it's literally "a" (singular) type-C port, and quite possibly the fastest USB port you've got on the entire machine, too. It goes without saying that dedicating your possibly 20 Gbit/s (USB 3.2x2) port to an audio interface that is far from even requiring 480 Mbit/s worth of USB 2.0 bandwidth is an utter waste. A hub of sorts may prove useful.