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Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

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MattHooper

MattHooper

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I have no direct thoughts on that product and the effect you experienced. But I do have a SQUIRREL!

Unfortunately, I lost the mesasurement data for the following:

I have a pair of KEF Q100 speakers sitting on the top of a built-in cabinet base in my living room. The speakers resonated that cabinet, creating a huge wall of muddy bass. This presented the perfect opportunity to measure different affordable isolation products.

The methodology was to place my UMIK-1 inside the cabinet, play a series of test tones while recording with the RTA, and capture the results for each set of isolators. The isolators were:
1. Little gray feet included withe the Q100s
2. Harry's Square Fat Dots
3. IsolateIt! Sorbothane hemispheres
4. Gray foam pads

The results were that the foam pads made the most difference with near complete isolation, and all the other isolaters performed similarly and poorly. The more expensive isolators were no better than the free feet that came with the speakers.

The curve ball is that treating the bottom of the cabinet base top with a double layer of the extreme version of that aluminum backed asphalt product made more difference than any of those isolators alone, save the foam pads.

Since the foam pads are ugly and not flat, the speakers currently sit on the Sorbothane hemispheres. Why? They were the last things stuck on the speakers, and there was no point in pulling them off for one of the other three.

I would re-run the test to get the data to post, but that would require me to pull the asphalt off, and I don't want to do that.

That's the conclusion I came to when I tested a bunch of isolation devices and materials. A foam-based subwoofer platform was best, most other materials, squishy and otherwise, were underwhelming. All were handily outpaced by spring-based isolation.

That said, I do have some sorbathane under several of my external hard drives. They tended to mildly vibrate the cabinet they sit in, which was amplifying the buzzing sound. The sorbathane killed that sound. But I was looking for more significant results in my quest for audio isolation stuff.
 
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MattHooper

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I just remembered I did these quick vibration measurements when I first got the spring-footers. Just shoved them under my tube amp, which sits on the suspended wood floor, just to test the difference. Iphone vibrometer placed on top of amp. One file shows the impact banging the floor near the amp, no footer. The other with the footer beneath the amp.

The Townshend pods I have showed greater effect when I tested them, but this was pretty good results for a cheap take on the idea.

The other issue with these cheaper spring footers is they are not damped at all, which means when they start wobbling they wobble for a while.
Whereas the Townshend design has the springs wrapped and damped, so any push on a device held by the pods returns to still almost immediately.
 

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Purité Audio

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A usb microphone is a lot cheaper than isolators.
Keith
 

restorer-john

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A usb microphone is a lot cheaper than isolators.
Keith

Just one USB microphone? No way, you'd need 8 microphones, one under each corner, or the speakers would topple over.
 

Coach_Kaarlo

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From work I have done with modal analysis and vibration analysis of large vibrating machines, I imagined (reasoned) that different combinations of speaker isolation method and floor construction might give very different results, some of which could perhaps be audible, but most would definitely be measurable.

A quick insight: these vibrating machines weigh 60,000 kg and vibrate in the vertical plane at about 6G at frequencies between 20 and 30Hz. To help the supporting structures survive the fatigue loads, and reduce the destructive vibration in neighbouring equipment we use isolation frames to mount the machine onto, which then mount to the structure. Both machine and frame are supported on springs and by tuning the mass of the isolation frame almost perfect isolation is achieved at running speed. In other words the structure doesn't move while 60 tonnes tries to destroy itself at 6G & 1,500rpm. Of course this is a different mechanism to a speaker because mostly the running speed is constant, but it has made me wonder about testing the same concept/ idea with my speakers.



I have been experimenting for a while with isolation versus direct coupling, using various simple isolation methods.

My premise was that sound is generated by moving air, and by inference also indirectly by objects vibrating which are exposed to the same air. If you feel the floor or furniture moving it is creating sound and or noise and or distortion - and naturally the question would be is it loud enough to be audible. But first I just wanted to see if I could measure it.

So to try and measure this effect I used REW with sweeps, pink noise, and also played musical content in the nearfield on the same speaker with different types of support. Both inside and outside the apartment.

I also recorded musical content with big dynamics (lots of woofer excursion) using a usb mic in nearfield, and then compared the result against the original file using DeltaWave - with the different types of speaker supports. The most obvious results were in distortion (when something vibrates during a sweep it shows up as distortion in the measurement), and also shows in the peak levels of transients (spectrogram plot in DeltaWave). Anecdotally, both the floor and the entire speaker cabinet vibrate much much less as the same SPL when isolated on Sorbothane (who knew...). I wonder if this vibration is actually audible, or it just manifests as reduced clarity, but for now it exists, and it can be measured.


Anyway, as a result of all this I have been using four 2" Sorbothane half domes under each speaker - with the mass of the Revels this results in about 30% compression on the front pair, and about 50% compression on the rear pair. Meaning they are within their nominal range of function as I understand it. There are pockets of information available on this topic, and certainly from first principles it seems you would want to isolate the vertical direction far more than the horizontal. So I am looking into the next evolution of isolation to try.


If work, life, and listening time permits I will try and pull together a post summarising what I managed to measure - with actual measurements and stuff.
 

pjug

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Some testing I found:

https://ethanwiner.com/speaker_isolation.htm

Springs would give better isolation than the pads that were tested, but still I will be surprised if sound differences can be measured with and without isolation of floorstanders. FWIW I am a user of sorbothane hemispheres under bookshelf speakers to keep other stuff on shelves from rattling.
 
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MattHooper

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MattHooper

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Some testing I found:

https://ethanwiner.com/speaker_isolation.htm

Springs would give better isolation than the pads that were tested, but still I will be surprised if sound differences can be measured with and without isolation of floorstanders. FWIW I am a user of sorbothane hemispheres under bookshelf speakers to keep other stuff on shelves from rattling.

Yeah I'm aware of Ethan's post about the isoacoustics stands. It's one of the reasons I'm a bit skeptical, but I don't think it necessarily puts the concept to rest. Their Gaia speaker footers certainly have taken the speaker world sort of my storm. I don't quite understand how they would actually produce a significant sonic change, either from the explanation they give and from my own brief experience with their iso pucks.
Part of that is informed by just testing isolation properties for those under my turntable. But the Gaia footers could work I suppose for their intended purpose under speakers. They do have some measurements cited on their site:

https://isoacoustics.com/isoacoustics-speaker-isolation-technology/

Word I heard recently via reviewer contacts is that the PSB guys, who are measurement oriented speaker manufacturers and who use the NRC facilities I believe, are familiar with the Isoacoustics team who are in there measuring their products for development as well, and they say the Isoacoustic guys know what they are doing. Apparently impressed enough to team up:

https://www.psbspeakers.com/psb-speakers-and-isoacoustics-announce-collaboration/
 

Blumlein 88

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Interesting...I could try that!

But do you mean I should measure the vibration of the speaker (iphone on top of the speaker) or the floor next to the speaker? It's the floor that stops vibrating with the springs in use. But perhaps the decoupling effect is also changing the vibration level or character in the speaker?
I had in mind measuring the speakers yes. Of course you could do both. Measure floor and speakers with and without springs.

It is no big mystery. Springs with a given strength and weight will act as a 2nd order low pass filter. They'll decouple frequencies above a certain frequencies so they can't pass the barrier. Townshend will have done the work to figure out what size spring and damping you need for a given weight speaker. I don't happen to know what frequency they wish to decouple, but I'm guessing somewhere just below 20 hz, and above.
 

Blumlein 88

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Sometimes a simple experiment hands on gets your attention. Way back when I wondered about damping metal cabinets. Took the lid off my CD player. Balanced it on a fingertip and struck it in several spots with the eraser end of a pencil. Not very hard. Just a few light taps and the thing was wobbling out of shape in a complex torsional vibration around 250 hz. Put a couple strips of a sound deadener, I mean like 1/2 inch by 4 inch strips cemented under the top. You could tap, tap, tap it all you wanted, and it just went thunk in a dead sounding way. Those strips soaked up enough energy to dampen out any vibration in just a few cycles.

Is that audible, does that effect the CD player, well that was another question. And could such things soak up and turn to heat enough of the energy in speaker vibration to matter. Again unanswered question, but in principle at least possible.

Decoupling vibration is a slightly different animal, and I can imagine it helps some speakers much more than others. For instance if the energy just radiates around a poorly damped cabinet then maybe not a big benefit. A rigid well damped cabinet however might sound clearly different.
 
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MattHooper

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Sometimes a simple experiment hands on gets your attention. Way back when I wondered about damping metal cabinets. Took the lid off my CD player. Balanced it on a fingertip and struck it in several spots with the eraser end of a pencil. Not very hard. Just a few light taps and the thing was wobbling out of shape in a complex torsional vibration around 250 hz. Put a couple strips of a sound deadener, I mean like 1/2 inch by 4 inch strips cemented under the top. You could tap, tap, tap it all you wanted, and it just went thunk in a dead sounding way. Those strips soaked up enough energy to dampen out any vibration in just a few cycles.

Is that audible, does that effect the CD player, well that was another question. And could such things soak up and turn to heat enough of the energy in speaker vibration to matter. Again unanswered question, but in principle at least possible.

Decoupling vibration is a slightly different animal, and I can imagine it helps some speakers much more than others. For instance if the energy just radiates around a poorly damped cabinet then maybe not a big benefit. A rigid well damped cabinet however might sound clearly different.

That's cool.

I had a sort of similar experience with my audio shelf. It's an old Classic Lovan rack (anyone remember when those were all the rage? The ones with levels with spikes on each, and you stacked them). I still use it as it's just about the only rack small enough to fit where I need it. But it is quite cheap, made of hollow metal tubes and cross-braces, with cheap, thin MDF shelves on each level. The shelves vibrated like heck if you stepped anywhere near and the metal structure rang like a mother if you even breath on it. I re-jigged it in order to put my big new turntable atop a couple years ago. I had so much different sound absorbing materials left over from my trials - including wall damping they use to damp sound in walls and cars, batches of sorbothane etc - I just started throwing everything I had left at it. Sound damping material on the bottom of every shelf. Damping attached to undersides of all metal bracing. Stuffed all the sorbothane I had in to the metal vertical tubes. While I doubt there was any sonic benefit, it made a fascinating difference to the sound and feel of the rack. Now if you rap a knuckle on the mdf shelfs they don't wobble and buzz - just sound dead. Rapping a knuckle on the tubes and braces before made loud hollow ringing sounds, but now it's a super dead thunk, and you'd guess you were rapping on solid metal.
 

Chromatischism

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What we perceive through tactile sensations is added to what we hear and becomes the whole of what we perceive. For example, added rumble makes bass seem more impactful and satisfying and is why I prefer my subwoofers to be coupled to the floor. With decoupled subs there doesn't seem to be much bass even if the SPL is the same.

But what you're perceiving from your L/R speakers sounds like a muddying or masking effect from vibrating wood – your floor or other items sounding as instruments of their own. I think it would have to be pretty strong to be that noticeable but it makes sense. Imagine the guys who put subs in their trunk and all you hear is rattttttle.
 

Absolute

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To test this out you can take something inflatable, like a wheelbarrow wheel hose, and inflate it so that it supports the speaker but is still soft enough that it's unstable and rocks about to the touch.

A good rule of thumb is to use some rubber about 1,5-2 cm thick that compresses about 1,5-2 mm under the weight of the speaker. That lowers the resonant frequency to below the audible band at around 12-15 hz or so.

It's silly to spend 1000$ + to achieve something you can achieve with simple washing machine rubber feet, although the Townshend stuff looks cool.
I use Sonic Design feet under my speakers with good effect;

https://www.divineaudio.co.uk/produ...feet-for-standard-loudspeaker-hifi-equipment/
 

Thomas_A

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theyellowspecial

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I have a suspended wooden floor and isolating the subwoofer definitely reduces some resonances. Haven't done any testing on my bookshelves with different materials. Just using some of the speaker supplied little urethane bumpers.
 

Thomas_A

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Regarding the audibility I gave an example with a speaker placed on my hifi equipment rack with hard and soft speaker feet (sonic design). First two sweeps are hard coupling, last two with soft coupling. Perhaps an extreme example, but it shows the principle that applies.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gganouqd28xy3nb/test.wav?dl=0
 

Phantomuser

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I put 4 spring feet under my turntable and they totally fixed the bass feedback problem it was having playing records at high volume.
I got them from eBay $45ish for 4.
I can turn the volume right up now and
the feedback has Gone ! Amazing.
 

Wombat

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Back in the 'olden days' they were standard on decent Japanese turntables. The sheath is a damper.


IMG_6800.JPG
 
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