The Laptop Thread

[JeffS7444]

The main reasons that I've seen for Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice/Libre Office include:

Outlook email client, with it's calendar, meeting invites and .vcard attachments (Windows)
Need to share documents with MS Office users and want formatting to remain consistent.

I've got mixed feelings about Microsoft's Office subscription model, but I'll admit that they understand human nature: From an IT perspective, the subscription model is an easier sale to management despite higher overall cost, because up-front costs are lower, and monthly charges quickly become the accepted norm.

 

[BenjaminB]

120 pounds is a bunch of money for Windows Home. When buying an off the shelf computer in the US I doubt the windows license adds more than a quarter of that to the price. It's expensive because that price is from a boutique manufacturer. The challenge with putting Linux on a laptop is getting things like charging, power management and fan control to work right not to mention peripherals like cameras and fingerprint readers to work. If it's a popular model or at least one where all the supporting hardware is widely used it will work. If not then heat, noise and battery life could turn out worse than Windows. Of course, removing the manufacturer's data gathering software will get that result on a Dell.

Agree on the £120, and the estimate of the price paid by the major pc manufacturers.

Do not agree so much on the rest. I use various Linux variants on my laptops sometimes with dual boot sometimes just Linux. No, saying none, problems with fans, charging, power management and so on. Have not tested fingerprint as I don't use such.
If you want to stay with Windows, fine. I regard W10/W11 as good OS. Using Linux because it fits my way of working, but have to have Windows now and then for some programs (aka apps) that only works on Windows.
I don't pay much for new laptops. Usually $500-700 for a performant pc with i7, >= 16 GB RAM, >= 500 GB SSD, never older than last year model.

 

[Ron Texas]

The main reasons that I've seen for Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice/Libre Office include:

Outlook email client, with it's calendar, meeting invites and .vcard attachments (Windows)
Need to share documents with MS Office users and want formatting to remain consistent.

I've got mixed feelings about Microsoft's Office subscription model, but I'll admit that they understand human nature: From an IT perspective, the subscription model is an easier sale to management despite higher overall cost, because up-front costs are lower, and monthly charges quickly become the accepted norm.

The free office alternatives are mostly compatible with Microsoft. I recall the exception was macros. A business which does not have to send complex documents outside could easily run the free stuff.

 

[JeffS7444]

I'll say this about the personal computing scene in 2024: It's way cheaper than it was in 1984, but costs of developing hardware and software probably aren't.

 

[Ron Texas]

Agree on the £120, and the estimate of the price paid by the major pc manufacturers.

Do not agree so much on the rest. I use various Linux variants on my laptops sometimes with dual boot sometimes just Linux. No, saying none, problems with fans, charging, power management and so on. Have not tested fingerprint as I don't use such.
If you want to stay with Windows, fine. I regard W10/W11 as good OS. Using Linux because it fits my way of working, but have to have Windows now and then for some programs (aka apps) that only works on Windows.
I don't pay much for new laptops. Usually $500-700 for a performant pc with i7, >= 16 GB RAM, >= 500 GB SSD, never older than last year model.

You are doing some good shopping there. A laptop user who does not do compute intensive tasks can get by without spending much. As for Linux hardware integration issues it's going to be hit and miss. It's also highly dependent on the technical skills of the user. My view is if it takes a lot of technical skill or a 130 IQ to solve the problem it's a far cry from something that just works. 95% of the things I have complained about here can be overcome with enough skill and time. Not everyone has both. However, being stuck with an Iris Xe GPU when GPU acceleration is needed can't be fixed without buying a new machine. Now someone will pop up and say how about an external graphics card? Yeah, just pull one out while waiting in an airport lounge.

 

[Timcognito]

I've got mixed feelings about Microsoft's Office subscription model, but I'll admit that they understand human nature: From an IT perspective, the subscription model is an easier sale to management despite higher overall cost, because up-front costs are lower, and monthly charges quickly become the accepted norm.

There is this

Microsoft Office Professional 2021 for Windows: Lifetime License | StackSocial

<p>Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Publisher & Access: All Microsoft Essentials to Get It All Done!</p>

www.stacksocial.com

 

[maverickronin]

My view is there is too much of that going around. It's why I have a huge issue with all the user data gathering software added to today's computers. I wish the tech journalists who publish reviews of computers (laptops especially) would attempt to remove this garbage and see if essential utilities like fan control still work. I have noted above some of this stuff like Nehemic Audio can't be removed without breaking the audio stack. On Dell laptops the fan control (and other functions) utility is tied into the manufacturers data gathering software. Drivers for Killer network interface hardware recently added telemetry. Do we all have to spend hours for a clean install and more hours to get a third party fan control utility to work? People are a bit glib about suggesting these workarounds. They are difficult and often require technical skills not possessed by many.

Slowly sliding into a cyberpunk dystopia where all commercial products with a network connection are spying on you isn't really a "DIY" issue.

 

[Ron Texas]

Slowly sliding into a cyberpunk dystopia where all commercial products with a network connection are spying on you isn't really a "DIY" issue.

I disagree because fixing it is a DIY project.

 

[maverickronin]

I disagree because fixing it is a DIY project.

Anything is a DIY project if you're ambitious enough.

Seriously though, the problem is that non-DIY solutions don't even exist to be purchased. I can fix a pothole on the street in from of my house by myself but that doesn't make it a "DIY" problem.

 

[Ron Texas]

Seriously though, the problem is that non-DIY solutions don't even exist to be purchased. I can fix a pothole on the street in from of my house by myself but that doesn't make it a "DIY" problem.

I agree on the pothole. The city is supposed to fix it out of the taxes you pay except these days governments spend the money on all kinds of crazy things first.

 

[mhardy6647]

FWIW, since it (sort of) came up -- I have found Outlook's interface to have become increasingly tedious over the last 15 years or so. I have to use Outlook for my teaching gig and for some of my clients, so I can't quite ignore it.

 

[somebodyelse]

120 pounds is a bunch of money for Windows Home. When buying an off the shelf computer in the US I doubt the windows license adds more than a quarter of that to the price. It's expensive because that price is from a boutique manufacturer. The challenge with putting Linux on a laptop is getting things like charging, power management and fan control to work right not to mention peripherals like cameras and fingerprint readers to work. If it's a popular model or at least one where all the supporting hardware is widely used it will work. If not then heat, noise and battery life could turn out worse than Windows. Of course, removing the manufacturer's data gathering software will get that result on a Dell.

I suspect you're right on the pricing for larger manufacturers, but we won't know for sure unless there's another antitrust trial. Same goes for payments for installing crapware like a 'free' time limited trial version of Office 365, some 'security' bundle or other, etc. although we do now have a good idea of how much it's worth to get your search engine set as the default.

I've been using linux long enough to do some research before buying hardware, so I haven't had any nasty surprises on that front for a long time. Dell, HP and Lenovo business laptops are actually pretty well covered now with support from the manufacturers - including making firmware available through LVFS so they can be applied like any other upgrade. Presumably they have enough business customers demanding this that it makes economic sense to them. It sounds like the experience with Dell might even be better under linux than Windows from what you're saying about data gathering.

 

[Ron Texas]

@somebodyelse using hardware from large manufacturers makes sense to me.

 

[mhardy6647]

Had a few personal and business HP computers (minitowers and lappies) and was pretty unhappy with all of them. Didn't seem to hold up well at all -- not just physical robustness; they seemed to be failure-prone.
Admittedly it's been a long time since I've encountered one.

 

[JeffS7444]

There is this

Microsoft Office Professional 2021 for Windows: Lifetime License | StackSocial

<p>Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Publisher & Access: All Microsoft Essentials to Get It All Done!</p>

www.stacksocial.com

As IT staff in a corporate environment, it can be easier to sell management on paying $240/year in perpetuity for each employee's MS Office install, rather than buying permanent licenses which might need to be purchased anew a few years hence, even if the latter option is actually less costly. And keeping track of licenses is much easier if you acquiesce to Microsoft's program. And the subscription model usually includes a managed Outlook-compatible mail server as part of the deal.

 

[Timcognito]

As IT staff in a corporate environment, it can be easier to sell management on paying $240/year in perpetuity for each employee's MS Office install, rather than buying permanent licenses which might need to be purchased anew a few years hence, even if the latter option is actually less costly. And keeping track of licenses is much easier if you acquiesce to Microsoft's program. And the subscription model usually includes a managed Outlook-compatible mail server as part of the deal.

As retired guy this gives me all I need. The updates keep coming and I got it when it was $50. Not doing so many Power Point presentations though.

 

[Timcognito]

Here's another deal $30 for $1400 of SW to learn Linux. Proceeds go Alzheimer's Research UK. FYI

Humble Software Bundle: Linux for Everyone

Start your Linux journey or skill-up into DevOps, cloud dev & more with this bundle of video courses from Packt! Your purchase supports Alzheimer’s Research UK.

www.humblebundle.com

 

[AGLeS]

This thread has been an interesting read. I’ve been a non-techie PC guy my whole life, both at work and home. Tried using a Mac at home and couldn’t handle the mental switching cost. Have had two Dell XPS laptops in a row and both have been…ok. Not perfect but no fatal flaws, although the bloatware issue is frustrating. All that said, if you had to hold your nose and buy a touchscreen Windows laptop, what would you recommend for hardware and how would you minimize the bloat?

 

[srrxr71]

This thread has been an interesting read. I’ve been a non-techie PC guy my whole life, both at work and home. Tried using a Mac at home and couldn’t handle the mental switching cost. Have had two Dell XPS laptops in a row and both have been…ok. Not perfect but no fatal flaws, although the bloatware issue is frustrating. All that said, if you had to hold your nose and buy a touchscreen Windows laptop, what would you recommend for hardware and how would you minimize the bloat?

Easiest way to minimize the bloat is to create a USB clean install stick and install a clean fresh copy of windows as soon as you get it. The license should be tied to the bios so you won’t have to pay for a copy. There are instructions for how to create the stick and install.

These days it goes fast like you can install a clean windows copy in 10 minutes.


Edit: also if you wish to go hardcore old school there is a technique to install without using a Microsoft account but it requires a little bit of trickery. They really try to force you into logging in or creating an Microsoft account. Personally I don’t care for it.

But one way or another if you use the machine for gaming or want to install store apps you will have to log in. But in just those apps. It will keep trying to log the whole OS into that account but you have to watch it.

It’s a real pain and as much as I didn’t like Mac OS I ended up biting thr bullet. The new version is more tolerable with that new feature that puts your open windows on the side.

Edit 2: it’s called stage manager. That feature has been very helpful. Before I couldn’t really understand the window manager.

 

[LTig]

There is this

Microsoft Office Professional 2021 for Windows: Lifetime License | StackSocial

<p>Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Publisher & Access: All Microsoft Essentials to Get It All Done!</p>

www.stacksocial.com

Whose lifetime?