Topping E30 DAC Review

[Jimbob54]

Actually I disagree here. I understand the role of the DAC to pass the original sound signature as accurately as possible to the amplifier <- but the Amplifier can modify that sound to be warmer/colder depending on taste/construction/etc. Now I am saying that difference does exist in the THX vs the L30s and I much prefer the THX because IT IS being fed by more power. Perhaps its also influenced by the headphones I am using which are the Elegia's but for the setup I have, the L30s will never be an option.

Yes, you can build an amp to impart a sound signature as described. And that would show in the measurements.

The measurements show that none of the thx amps reviewed here, more the recent topping offerings have any such signatures. They are audibly transparent. What you are hearing isn't due to amp construction or characteristics. And both will power the elegia just fine.

 

[AudioSonic]

Yes, you can build an amp to impart a sound signature as described. And that would show in the measurements.

The measurements show that none of the thx amps reviewed here, more the recent topping offerings have any such signatures. They are audibly transparent. What you are hearing isn't due to amp construction or characteristics. And both will power the elegia just fine.

Well that's based on the measurements of factors that are already known. Can you measure the musicality of music? NO. Can you measure differences in tone? Possible but also subjective. What do you measure that actually translates to "tone" to the ear? What you measure are decibal differences not how it translates as sound to the human ear, which IS subjective.

And I am saying the THXs have that sound that are superior to the L30s.

 

[Robin L]

In any case I didn't want to get into a pissing match here. Just that I don't think the flavor of the month amplifier should necessarily be touted as "best" or "better" on measurements that plays no part in the hearing process.

I mean I did buy the E30s to replace the D30 that I have at another room after all. But I will not be buying the L30s to replace my THXs, ever.
Although if someone here has replaced their THX + D90 combo with a A90 + D90 combo and can say there was a noticeable improvement, I'd like to hear your impressions.

thanks and cheers.

Don't worry about it.

Here's the power measurements of the Monoprice THX 887:

This is the power available from the THX amp via balanced output:

Here's the same for the Topping L30:

The Topping L30 doesn't have a balanced out mode. If you're using balanced out, the THX would have enough of an advantage that there would be an audible difference if played very loud. However, if played that loud for any length of time, everything would then become inaudible.

There is a difference in distortion that favors the Topping unit, but [again], the distortion is theoretically past the point of discernibility in both units.

And hey, if you don't want to spend money when you already have a completely serviceable alternative in hand, then by all means don't.

 

[BDWoody]

And I am saying the THXs have that sound that are superior to the L30s.

Uh huh...

 

[infinitesymphony]

@AudioSonic

When you say you hear differences that are not present in measurements taken by equipment that reaches beyond the threshold of audibility, the implication is that we are not measuring important audible variables. In order to justify that position, you would have to quantify what variables we are not measuring that might cause these differences.

 

[AudioSonic]

@AudioSonic

When you say you hear differences that are not present in measurements taken by equipment that reaches beyond the threshold of audibility, the implication is that we are not measuring important audible variables. In order to justify that position, you would have to quantify what variables we are not measuring that might cause these differences.

And that's the rub isn't it? What are the unknowns? Aren't they called unknowns for that very reason and this is why we continue to have debates when new audio equipment comes out that "sound" different and "better" despite measurements. And don't think that you people on this forum are the be all and end all of people in the music industry or elsewhere who have specifically come out and said measurements are not the end story of sound and music to the ear.

And this is still the reason why you have people buying $5000 DACs that probably measures similar to the L30s but cost 50x more and yet the L30s can't "compare" in sound to them. Funny how that works.

 

[AudioSonic]

Uh huh...

It is subjective. Just my opinion that they are.

 

[Taddpole]

I think we continue to have debates as people continue to want to hear the inaudible differences and there's money to be made in that.

 

[infinitesymphony]

And that's the rub isn't it? What are the unknowns? Aren't they called unknowns for that very reason and this is why we continue to have debates when new audio equipment comes out that "sound" different and "better" despite measurements. And don't think that you people on this forum are the be all and end all of people in the music industry or elsewhere who have specifically come out and said measurements are not the end story of sound and music to the ear.

And this is still the reason why you have people buying $5000 DACs that probably measures similar to the L30s but cost 50x more and yet the L30s can't "compare" in sound to them. Funny how that works.

It's good to be skeptical, but one thing we know about the human brain is that it is highly interpretive; it covers things up, sees things that aren't there, and finds connections that may or may not exist.

As a musician, I'm highly conscious of the fact that what I hear changes from day to day and moment to moment based on a million variables like how hydrated I am, if I have a cold or allergies, did I just wake up, how long have I been listening, was I in a room with a fan or HVAC system with a constant noise that, once removed, is causing a temporary dip in that region. It's endless. That's why I trust the things we can measure, especially when the measurements are SOTA and the gear is at the point where the differences between products are becoming more academic than tangible.

 

[AudioSonic]

It's good to be skeptical, but one thing we know about the human brain is that it is highly interpretive; it covers things up, sees things that aren't there, and finds connections that may or may not exist.

As a musician, I'm highly conscious of the fact that what I hear changes from day to day and moment to moment based on a million variables like how hydrated I am, if I have a cold or allergies, did I just wake up, how long have I been listening, was I in a room with a fan or HVAC system with a constant noise that, once removed, is causing a temporary dip in that region. It's endless. That's why I trust the things we can measure, especially when the measurements are SOTA and the gear is at the point where the differences between products are becoming more academic than tangible.

Measurements have their place and I understand about how subjective someone's listening can be based on mood. But to say that all amps that measure in the same range as each other will eventually sound identical is ludicrous and has already been proven to be false.

Each equipment has its own signature (or can have one...I guess being flat is a signature too). But at this point when measurements become so out of range of the normal HEARING ability, it becomes rather ludicrous to say there is "tangibility" since you can't even hear that tangibility in the first place. Than SUBJECTIVITY does come into play or presumed tone/sound signature differences between equipment. If enough people perceive this in their hearing, then this is the difference but unfortunately THAT can't be measured and THAT has been proven time and time again.

There just are things you can't measure no matter how much you think it might be possible. Translation from sound to ear is most likely one of them.

 

[voodooless]

And that's the rub isn't it? What are the unknowns?

Oh boy.. here we go.

Aren't they called unknowns for that very reason and this is why we continue to have debates

The audiophile of the gaps argument.. No! The reason we have these debates is that people refuse to accept that they’re hearing and brains are very flawed devices that cannot be used to compare things unless the circumstances are very specific and very controlled

And this is still the reason why you have people buying $5000 DACs that probably measures similar to the L30s but cost 50x more and yet the L30s can't "compare" in sound to them. Funny how that works.

Not funny, but criminal!

 

[Sukie]

Measurements have their place and I understand about how subjective someone's listening can be based on mood. But to say that all amps that measure in the same range as each other will eventually sound identical is ludicrous and has already been proven to be false.

Can you point me in the direction of this proof?

Just that I don't think the flavor of the month amplifier should necessarily be touted as "best" or "better" on measurements that plays no part in the hearing process.

I mean I did buy the E30s to replace the D30 that I have at another room after all. But I will not be buying the L30s to replace my THXs, ever.

And nor should you. Nobody on here is claiming that we should all go out and buy the L30, as if it's some wonder product that will improve every aspect of your listening experience. Quite the opposite. Many of us have repeatedly said that, if you already have a transparent HPA that you're happy with then you don't need the L30.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Measurements have their place and I understand about how subjective someone's listening can be based on mood. But to say that all amps that measure in the same range as each other will eventually sound identical is ludicrous and has already been proven to be false.

Each equipment has its own signature (or can have one...I guess being flat is a signature too). But at this point when measurements become so out of range of the normal HEARING ability, it becomes rather ludicrous to say there is "tangibility" since you can't even hear that tangibility in the first place. Than SUBJECTIVITY does come into play or presumed tone/sound signature differences between equipment. If enough people perceive this in their hearing, then this is the difference but unfortunately THAT can't be measured and THAT has been proven time and time again.

There just are things you can't measure no matter how much you think it might be possible. Translation from sound to ear is most likely one of them.

Where have those things been proven? That, for example, two amps with near identical performance beyond what we know about the threshold of human distinguishability, could still sound different.

What you're saying sounds a lot like an argument from faith, or "magical thinking." That's not going to have much traction here. We would love to discover some new factor we hadn't considered that sheds light on differences between equipment, but until that happens we're going to measure the variables we know about and draw conclusions based on those.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well that's based on the measurements of factors that are already known. Can you measure the musicality of music? NO. Can you measure differences in tone? Possible but also subjective. What do you measure that actually translates to "tone" to the ear? What you measure are decibal differences not how it translates as sound to the human ear, which IS subjective.

And I am saying the THXs have that sound that are superior to the L30s.

All of the sound you are talking about are the interaction of your ears and headphones. The L30 at the same output level as the thx amps will result in an audibly identical behaviour in the drivers of your headphones. Any differences in noise and distortion are way below audible levels.End of.

 

[AudioSonic]

Where have those things been proven? That, for example, two amps with near identical performance beyond what we know about the threshold of human distinguishability, could still sound different.

What you're saying sounds a lot like an argument from faith, or "magical thinking." That's not going to have much traction here. We would love to discover some new factor we hadn't considered that sheds light on differences between equipment, but until that happens we're going to measure the variables we know about and draw conclusions based on those.

What are you talking about? You yourselves have already proven the point that measurements do not define the audio equipment and equipment that have very similar measures are not the same nor do they sound the same either. So there is no "magical thinking" here as you state but your own conclusions of testing multiple products amplify this viewpoint.

Besides if you really want to go basic then its really a matter of what components were used in the equipment that specifically creates those consistent measurements for that specific brand of devices as well as the sound signature. So depending on how your equipment was put together is REALLY the factor in how it sounds and how it measure since you know all SP200 or L30s, hundreds and thousands of them in a manufacturing line have the same similar measurements and sound signature yes?

Well then if that is the case than I will say the THX chipset is superior and my preference over the chipset being used in the L30s. Will THAT be more acceptable then?

 

[AudioSonic]

All of the sound you are talking about are the interaction of your ears and headphones. The L30 at the same output level as the thx amps will result in an audibly identical behaviour in the drivers of your headphones. Any differences in noise and distortion are way below audible levels.End of.

All of the sound you are talking about are the interaction of your ears and headphones. The L30 at the same output level as the thx amps will result in an audibly identical behaviour in the drivers of your headphones. Any differences in noise and distortion are way below audible levels.End of.

no because I can now say that the THX equipment is built on a different chipset than the L30s and it produces a better sound, with similar measurements. What will you say to that?

 

[infinitesymphony]

But to say that all amps that measure in the same range as each other will eventually sound identical is ludicrous and has already been proven to be false.

If enough people perceive this in their hearing, then this is the difference but unfortunately THAT can't be measured and THAT has been proven time and time again.

The above are assertions you made where I am requesting proof.

Well then if that is the case that I will say the THX chipset is superior and my preference over the chipset being used in the L30s. Will THAT be more acceptable then?

The implementation matters just as much as the components.

For what it's worth, I would love to find some new undiscovered variable. Even Topping's designer @JohnYang1997 hinted in the Topping L30 thread that he thought he might have heard a difference between the L30 and the JDS Labs Atom.

 

[BDWoody]

no because I can now say that the THX equipment is built on a different chipset than the L30s and it produces a better sound, with similar measurements. What will you say to that?

Uh huh...

 

[Sukie]

no because I can now say that the THX equipment is built on a different chipset than the L30s and it produces a better sound, with similar measurements. What will you say to that?

"Better sound" is a meaningless phrase. If it's just your take on things, that's fine. The phrase is "a sound that I prefer". In this case it's very easily explained. It's simply your opinion and has absolutely nothing to do with the performance of the equipment.

 

[AudioSonic]

I mean are any of you guys gonna really out yourself and say that ALL L30s or SP200s measure differently from each other? I mean the whole reason why people rush to buy these models are because they are built the same with the same components and will produce a consistant measurement/sound for EACH MODEL BUILT.

So on a basic level it really comes down to components used and how it was built yes? And IF THX measures similarly to L30s then you can say that the THX has a different sound signature because it underwent a different build process as well as a different board/chip design which contributes to the uniqueness of that said device?

Well then there you have you unknown factor.