Topping LA90 Review (Integrated Amplifier)

[mdsimon2]

Your example is only 5 dB louder. But I agree with your point. But the options aren’t as prevalent as I would like. Here is a screen capture of the amps over 80 SINAD (my threshold given listening style and need for headroom) that have been reviewed. Is there a $400 to $800 dollar amp that does 150-160 into 8ohms at a reasonable SINAD, flat response, and low distortion across the spectrum? The only one I’m seeing on the list is the Outlaw 2200. It’s frequency response isn’t great, but it gets you 200 watts into 8 ohms and two channels would be about the same cost as the LA90. But if you don’t need the power (and many people don’t since 8/16 watts 4/8 ohms will give you 90 dBSPL at a 2 meter distance with 90db/watt/meter speakers), the LA90 is a bit better in some perhaps audible ways, much better in inaudible ways.

View attachment 209669

Obvious answer is the plethora of Hypex NC252MP (~150 W x 2 in to 8 ohm) and NC502MP (~350 W x 2 in to 8 ohm) based amps available for less than $800, offering 95+ dB SINAD at 5 W in to 4 ohm and spec’d stability down to 2 ohm. I would also argue Hypex has a much better reliability track record than Topping.

Michael

 

[hyfynut]

I'm not sure why you're spending all this effort dissing the Topping LA90, which is a confirmed achievement in low distortion measurements at anywhere near that level of power output at any price, much less sub-$1000 which is unheard of in the audiophile world.

If you don't need or want this kind of insanely low distortion at moderate power, then don't buy it.

As to the implication that nobody would ever need this level of low distortion, well "need" is relative, but there are scenarios you could construct where one could indeed tell the difference (low volume but high sensitivity), though given the huge range involved it's probably rare.

For others maybe this is a "bought a giant pickup truck or sports car but just use it for commuting" case, and while you can laugh about people who "buy more than they need for an application", it's not exactly a huge splurge in this case compared to the various random audiophile buys out there, haha... (says the guy who is seriously thinking of getting an LA90).

It's really no effort at all. Yes the specs are incredible. But I would imagine they should be for an $800 32 watt amp. I doubt that any distortion differences above sinad of 90 are audible regardless of how sensitive your speakers and ears are, especially since the distortion your speakers produce will more than make up for it. Everything above that point is for bragging rights. It's got nothing to do with the level of distortion anybody needs. It's all about us not being able to hear it.
Now I don't know who would call an amp that can produce 120w into 8 ohms a "giant pickup truck" in this scenerio. That's a considerable exaggeration. A better comparison would be perhaps a mincooper vs a sedan.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Obvious answer is the plethora of Hypex NC252MP (~150 W x 2 in to 8 ohm) and NC502MP (~350 W x 2 in to 8 ohm) based amps available for less than $800, offering 95+ dB SINAD at 5 W in to 4 ohm and spec’d stability down to 2 ohm. I would also argue Hypex has a much better reliability track record than Topping.

Michael

I was forgetting those. Ice power builds also show a lot of promise. It would be good to get more reviews of those. Didn’t the VTV have some issues? The review index isn’t working on my phone. Buckeyes’ look like a great bargain. I actually enquired about one, but they were out until August (this was in March). But your right, I personally would go with one of those over the LA90.

 

[eboleyn]

I doubt that any distortion differences above sinad of 90 are audible regardless of how sensitive your speakers and ears are, especially since the distortion your speakers produce will more than make up for it.

While I would mostly agree, it is getting in the Zone of some headphone amps, and as someone who can hear the noise floor on some supposedly low distortion amps, pushing further into the zone of "no-way can we hear distortion or noise" has appeal. Well-made speaker driver units decrease the ... I guess I'll call it the "distortion floor" as the signal goes down. Amps do not, so there are some boundary cases where that low-level noise indeed injects itself in.

Everything above that point is for bragging rights. It's got nothing to do with the level of distortion anybody needs. It's all about us not being able to hear it.

Let's say you're right, for the sake of argument. How often are >$1000, >$5000, >$10000, etc. audiophile things arguably well out of the zone of someone being able to tell the difference? A lot! People still want them sometimes, and the entire market of high-end audio exists for that purpose. There are >$10000 audiophile tube amps that produce only a handful of watts and they get purchased regularly for the properties people want from them. In this case it's really not in that super-costly zone, being still sub-$1000.

Now I don't know who would call an amp that can produce 120w into 8 ohms a "giant pickup truck" in this scenerio. That's a considerable exaggeration. A better comparison would be perhaps a mincooper vs a sedan.

Haha, sure. I was just trying to make the example of "buying something you don't need". Maybe a car that has absolutely insanely accurate handling better than super-sports-cars but can only go 60 mph? Haha.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Seems like 2 completely different complaints about 2 different products. Or do you call anything other than complete adulation trolling?

The people who complain the loudest usually gave the least relevant things to say, that’s all. Legitimate criticism is one thing. Ridiculousness is another.

 

[Billy Budapest]

you can't here the difference in distortion between the next bunch of amps on the Sinad chart and this one so I'll gladly take a higher inaudible distortion number to get more power.

That is a legitimate viewpoint. No one is arguing that the noise and distortion performance the LA90 achieves is audible. But to get near its envelope-pushing performance in that area, you need to spend a heck of a lot more than $800, with the notable exception of another Topping product which people similarly slammed for being “too expensive” and “underpowered.”

People like to complain just to hear their own voices and to see if they can bait others. That’s called trolling.

 

[Billy Budapest]

It's really no effort at all. Yes the specs are incredible. But I would imagine they should be for an $800 32 watt amp. I doubt that any distortion differences above sinad of 90 are audible regardless of how sensitive your speakers and ears are, especially since the distortion your speakers produce will more than make up for it. Everything above that point is for bragging rights. It's got nothing to do with the level of distortion anybody needs. It's all about us not being able to hear it.
Now I don't know who would call an amp that can produce 120w into 8 ohms a "giant pickup truck" in this scenerio. That's a considerable exaggeration. A better comparison would be perhaps a mincooper vs a sedan.

There is no practical difference between an 80wpc amp and a 120wpc amp if you are considering power output alone. It can get probably 1-2% louder at maximum volume—I can’t even guess how many dB that is but it’s got to be less than 1dB.

 

[IPunchCholla]

There is no practical difference between an 80wpc amp and a 120wpc amp if you are considering power output alone. It can get probably 1-2% louder at maximum volume—I can’t even guess how many dB that is but it’s got to be less than 1dB.

1.8 dB

 

[Billy Budapest]

1.8 dB

Just ran the calculation and it is roughly 1.8 dBm. So at maximum output the difference will be barely audible.

 

[raest]

what is this 80wpc amp you're talking about in the LA90 thread of 36wpc clean power?

That is a legitimate viewpoint. No one is arguing that the noise and distortion performance the LA90 achieves is audible. But to get near its envelope-pushing performance in that area, you need to spend a heck of a lot more than $800, with the notable exception of another Topping product which people similarly slammed for being “too expensive” and “underpowered.”

People like to complain just to hear their own voices and to see if they can bait others. That’s called trolling.

envelope pushing of.. inaudible stuff? you mean like fancy cables? why criticize those but give a pass to this? just hypocrisy or? shall we start measuring "best" speakers by how much they can play frequencies beyond 20kHz?

how are so few people here not understanding that these ridiculous lines of thoughts actually "delegitimize" this forum and what it stands for? that it gives actually legit and tangible "ammunition" to the detractors? that if taken further (i.e. Topping releasing a 10wpc with an even higher sinad and same lack of features), instead of it being the beginning of the revolution, it will become a joke and everything will go back to 5000$ cables and power conditioners and ethernet switches?

sad

btw, the complaints about power and $$$ were much much rarer on the PA5 thread.

 

[hyfynut]

Your example is only 5 dB louder. But I agree with your point. But the options aren’t as prevalent as I would like. Here is a screen capture of the amps over 80 SINAD (my threshold given listening style and need for headroom) that have been reviewed. Is there a $400 to $800 dollar amp that does 150-160 into 8ohms at a reasonable SINAD, flat response, and low distortion across the spectrum? The only one I’m seeing on the list is the Outlaw 2200. It’s frequency response isn’t great, but it gets you 200 watts into 8 ohms and two channels would be about the same cost as the LA90. But if you don’t need the power (and many people don’t since 8/16 watts 4/8 ohms will give you 90 dBSPL at a 2 meter distance with 90db/watt/meter speakers), the LA90 is a bit better in some perhaps audible ways, much better in inaudible ways.

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There is no practical difference between an 80wpc amp and a 120wpc amp if you are considering power output alone. It can get probably 1-2% louder at maximum volume—I can’t even guess how many dB that is but it’s got to be less than 1dB.

Who's comparing an 80w amp to a 120w amp? This is a 32w amp into 8 ohms. This amplifier has very very good specs, at 32 watts into 8ohms. It's numbers definitely do give it and it's owners bragging rights. No better sound, but yes it measures incredibly well. There are so many products on the market (several reviewed here) that offer better value is my point.

 

[eboleyn]

what is this 80wpc amp you're talking about in the LA90 thread of 36wpc clean power?


envelope pushing of.. inaudible stuff? you mean like fancy cables? why criticize those but give a pass to this? just hypocrisy or? shall we start measuring "best" speakers by how much they can play frequencies beyond 20kHz?

how are so few people here not understanding that these ridiculous lines of thoughts actually "delegitimize" this forum and what it stands for? that it gives actually legit and tangible "ammunition" to the detractors? that if taken further (i.e. Topping releasing a 10wpc with an even higher sinad and same lack of features), instead of it being the beginning of the revolution, it will become a joke and everything will go back to 5000$ cables and power conditioners and ethernet switches?

sad

btw, the complaints about power and $$$ were much much rarer on the PA5 thread.

This is getting ridiculous. You really want to make the argument that going beyond what is necessary is equivalent to the fancy audio cable snake oil thing?? It really feels like you're making such an argument without actually considering the data.

2 things:

1) fancy audio cables don't even measure better in the 10Hz - 30kHz -ish range to begin with, or if so, only very marginally, at 6-10 foot lengths people typically use other than maybe using a truly grounded shield (which no amp supports!) and twisting, but hey maybe you can prove me wrong.

2) As to the argument that "the LA90 measurements could never matter in real life", well let's just put some numbers to that... so, in Topping's lineup let's use their next level down example, the PA5: For example, I have a 110db/watt headphone (at ~8 ohms impedance) that I could drive with my Topping PA5. However I really like quiet listening, and a recent test shows my listening level at times is around 60 db. Checking the Topping PA5's ASR measurements and assuming it goes down linearly to that level, that means the background noise would be at about -45db. That's in the zone of "inaudible, but not hugely so". Is it really fanciful to consider that I'd perhaps want it to be lower than that?

The only other ~$1000 amp that measures a bit better than that which delivers more than 1 watt is the Purifi 1ET400A, with the point being that the prices just go up from there. If you're wondering why I'm not considering headphone amps here which supposedly are better SINAD at low wattage, they are typically very impedance dependent, i.e. you have to look at the voltage delivery. Low impedance high sensitivity is where they break down and get into high noise too. The LA90 might actually beat or at least equal the best headphone amps measured on ASR, for example.

This is also just talking about the "distortion" measurement, and I'm still leery about IM distortion floors being higher than THD, so you have to consider that problem too.

So, it's not so far beyond the pale to consider cases in which higher SINAD is useful. How useful? Maybe not much, but I'm not convinced that the existing available products in the price range in question are so good that there is no possibly reasonable market for the LA90.

I'm going to be purchasing one myself, and you're welcome to call me a fool for it... but for sub-$1000 compared to other crazy audiophile amps which measure much worse, I'm reasonably happy for what I'm getting.

 

[raest]

This is getting ridiculous. You really want to make the argument that going beyond what is necessary is equivalent to the fancy audio cable snake oil thing?? It really feels like you're making such an argument without actually considering the data.

2 things:

1) fancy audio cables don't even measure better in the 10Hz - 30kHz -ish range to begin with, or if so, only very marginally, at 6-10 foot lengths people typically use other than maybe using a truly grounded shield (which no amp supports!) and twisting, but hey maybe you can prove me wrong.

yes, fancy cables measure better... marginally. so marginally, as to being totally inaudible as we're talking literally fractions of a decibel. why would i try to "prove you wrong" when that's what i'm talking about? wth you on?

2) As to the argument that "the LA90 measurements could never matter in real life", well let's just put some numbers to that... so, in Topping's lineup let's use their next level down example, the PA5: For example, I have a 110db/watt headphone (at ~8 ohms impedance) that I could drive with my Topping PA5. However I really like quiet listening, and a recent test shows my listening level at times is around 60 db. Checking the Topping PA5's ASR measurements and assuming it goes down linearly to that level, that means the background noise would be at about -45db. That's in the zone of "inaudible, but not hugely so". Is it really fanciful to consider that I'd perhaps want it to be lower than that?

you're telling me my arguments are "ridiculous" when you had to go out of your way to construct an example by using headphones on a speaker amp with no headphone out just to try and prove a point? lol

the audible benefits are super marginal and very very very niche in an already niche category, but can be found even in the speaker world (given by people, even in this very thread, iirc)

i stopped reading here because this is taking "ridiculousness" to whole new highs

the whole point was that calling this amp "the best", and i'm repeating myself for probably the 10th time here, when it's inaudibly better than what people consider "the competition" in roughly 99,999% of the use cases, but is actually audibly worse (less gain, less power i.e. will clip sooner) in a lot of use cases... is counterproductive and is just changing one cult for another.

not to mention that 99,99% of the people into high end audio wouldn't be able to tell the difference in blind tests between this and your average flat fr "big brand" integrated amp with a sinad score of 80-90 with orders of magnitude more features, often at a fraction of the cost

 

[eboleyn]

...
you're telling me my arguments are "ridiculous" when you had to go out of your way to construct an example by using headphones on a speaker amp with no headphone out just to try and prove a point? lol

the audible benefits are super marginal and very very very niche in an already niche category, but can be found even in the speaker world (given by people, even in this very thread, iirc)

i stopped reading here because this is taking "ridiculousness" to whole new highs

the whole point was that calling this amp "the best", and i'm repeating myself for probably the 10th time here, when it's inaudibly better than what people consider "the competition" in roughly 99,999% of the use cases, but is actually audibly worse (less gain, less power i.e. will clip sooner) in a lot of use cases... is counterproductive and is just changing one cult for another.

not to mention that 99,99% of the people into high end audio wouldn't be able to tell the difference in blind tests between this and your average flat fr "big brand" integrated amp with a sinad score of 80-90 with orders of magnitude more features, often at a fraction of the cost

I'm still puzzled on the "why do you care so much to judge" thing. You also don't know my application. Yes my example above is technically a headphone, but it was one that is meant for being driven on speaker amp taps given the low impedance. There might be cases where it might dip as low as 4 ohms or lower depending on the cabling I use. Many ASR readers are audio geeks who do Weird stuff.

ASR's point is measurement (I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong), not judgement of application in general other than a simple scale of "it works great!" or "it works bad!". A new amp was delivered, measurement done. Simple guidance like "beyond audibility" was commented on, as well as being impressed by the technology. This is a technology forum too.

If you want a site that provides explicit "for this amount of money, you should buy $X in Y list of components to get the features you want for the best price", that's a different thing and to my understanding not what this site is providing. I'm sorry if that's what you expected.

 

[simplywyn]

Skillful selection of capacitors is the whole secret of the art of audio.

I'm an electrical engineer and this is bullshit

 

[voodooless]

I'm an electrical engineer and this is bullshit

Well, try using a tantalum capacitor in a passive speaker crossover, and you’ll know what he’s talking about

 

[pma]

Well, try using a tantalum capacitor in a passive speaker crossover, and you’ll know what he’s talking about

Here the measurement proof

https://linearaudio.nl/sites/linearaudio.net/files/Bateman%20EW%2001%202003%20mar2003%2010%20to%20100uF%20caps%20and%20100%20Hz%20measurements_0.pdf

 

[antcollinet]

Well, try using a tantalum capacitor in a passive speaker crossover, and you’ll know what he’s talking about

That doesn't make capacitor selection the "whole secret of the art of audio"

 

[voodooless]

That doesn't make capacitor selection the "whole secret of the art of audio"

Obviously not.. notice the smiley face

There is no dark art here, just some science.

 

[Ra1zel]

Yes my example above is technically a headphone, but it was one that is meant for being driven on speaker amp taps given the low impedance

You have a 110dB/W headphone with low impedance and you buy a speaker power amplifier to drive it? And you will be using the ****** pot to control the volume? I'm slightly confused.