Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?

[Magnus]

Eh, what?



Nobody here is censoring you.



I don't use "center spread" mode. I don't use an AVR or external processor. I use JRiver (cheap) with apparent mixing similarities to what it does -- but modified where the center is significantly reduced in level. It's easy to AB between different media content and DSP settings to determine what sounds better to my ears.


-------------

JRiver's JRSS pseudo-surround processing seems to be not really all that complicated -- at least from my simplistic mono signal testing:

Pseudo-Surround (ps) mode default results upmixing stereo LR to 5.1

L to ps BM CTR -7.5 dB
R to ps BM CTR -7.5 dB
L to ps SL -4 dB (delayed 20 ms)
R to ps SL -8 dB (delayed 20 ms) inverted
R to ps SR -4 dB (delayed 20 ms)
L to ps SR -8 dB (delayed 20 ms) inverted

While the levels and delays (30 ms rear channels) in 7.1c mode are different, it yields similar results in principle.

My discussion above was referring specifically to Center Spread in regards its center duplication compared to it being turned off (similar to PLII Movies VS PLII Music). I do not use JRiver.

 

[ernestcarl]

My discussion above was referring specifically to Center Spread in regards its center duplication compared to it being turned off (similar to PLII Movies VS PLII Music). I do not use JRiver.

Do you know of any documentation about the formula or the math behind this specific DSP feature (Denon and Marantz only)?

I'm guessing it's proprietary -- but somebody must have done (at least) some simple mono or more complex signal testing out there.

 

[Magnus]

Do you know of any documentation about the formula or the math behind this specific DSP feature (Denon and Marantz only)?

I'm guessing it's proprietary -- but somebody must have done (at least) some simple mono or more complex signal testing out there.

No, but I recently read some interesting bits about how Logic 7 was developed and improved over time.

My MC-1 does seem to have a couple of bugs, though and it seems strange Lexicon never fixed them in an update since V4 is the last firmware AFAIK.

For example, if no center channel is set, DTS 5.1 Logic 7 mode plays the phantom center channel about 6dB too loud. It doesn't do this in Dolby Digital 5.1 Logic 7, just DTS.

The center in stereo Logic 7 is 3dB louder than the phantom center (on my V2 firmware DC-1, this can be corrected by choosing the +3dB "enhanced dialog" option (which oddly doesn't seem to do anything on the MC-1 V4, but works great on the DC-1 V2).

That "center" with a center channel speaker seems to pull some sounds toward it, but not with the phantom center so it sounds best on the DC-1 with a phantom center and +3dB vocal enhancement (there's a bypass button on the DC-1 to quickly compare pure stereo to any mode on it) and that setting matches the stereo sound, but with the surround channel enhancements.

But at least it has a lot of adjustable parameters. I read newer AVR/AVPs by HK had just basic on/off type versions. The MC-1 V4 software I have in my home theater has the most adjustable parameters of the three units I own (I've got a V1 software DC-1 with Dolby Digital and THX only I use in my home gym room in addition to the DC-1 with DTS/DD/THX with V2 software on my Carver AL-III ribbon system with Klipsch surrounds).

I bought multiple units in part to get one with a proper remote I could then copy with learning remotes, newer software and hardware. All three only cost about $400 total, which isn't bad considering they originally went for $4k, $5k and $6k respectively (DD only, DTS/SD and MC-1 with everything and V4).

 

[Andysu]

If you have identical mains properly set up and aligned, you don't really need Center Spread.

CS is really there to make inferior "center channel speakers" sound better by mixing in the better quality L/R Mains.

I have identical LCR here and the setting sounds the same from the MLP with it it on or off and definitely worse off-axis due to it pulling to the closer speaker (Haas/Precedent Effect).

In fact, I see zero point in having the center speaker on for music at all if you're just going to mix in the mains. I suppose there's less Precedence pull than none, but it's still pretty bad off-center, IMO.


As for upmixers, I've been playing with a Lexicon MC-1 plugged into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 inputs (the 8015 is the last model to feature 7.1 inputs and it's on sale right now as it's being replaced by the Cinema30) and all I can say is Logic 7 blows the pants off everything out there when it comes to 2-channel to 7.1 upmixing.

You never knew what PLII was going to do with music. Some albums sounded interesting, but most just sounded odd, IMO while Logic 7 almost never sounds odd or bad. I disagree it's just ambience. I'm getting pretty 3D sound with some albums like Tori Amos' Ocean to Ocean, particularly if I add side heights to mirror my front stage "lift" effect at the sides too.

I use "Scatmos" to extract front wides and ss#2 (which also works with the Lexicon)(as well as full Heights+Tops using reverse polarity extraction on a couple of Marantz NR1403 half-height AVRs) and setting the Yamaha HTR-5960 (front wide extraction AVRs) to "Neural Surround" decoding while leaving the arrayed copies pure (Y-splitter before the extraction AVRs) gives this incredible vertical image spread very similar to what Neural X does with movies. I think the two are related as DTS bought Neural Surround and then developed Neural X next. In Star Wars (2-channel 1977 Dolby Surround track), the bits where C3P0 looks up and asks what was that imaged at ear level before, but with this effect, it images high while other sounds image low just like with Neural X. Neural X is probably more accurate, but it doesn't work with 2-channel sources very well, IMO so this offers a nice alternative. DSU is somewhat better, but it just sucks with 2-channel music, IMO.

Overall, I find Logic 7 to be the perfect balance between ambience and upmixing for 2-channel sources. It does pretty well here with 5.1 sources as well (Toy Story 2 where Al from Al's Toy Barn runs down the left wall saying, "Buck Buck Bucks" and laughing moves smooth as silk here with Logic 7 down the left wall and over to the center rear. With THX EX (really DTS-ES matrix), it moves part way down and then "jumps" over to the rear center as it's mono. With Logic 7, it's one smooth motion. Neural X can achieve the same effect here with front wides and ss#2 extracted, but it's impressive that technology from 1999 can manage 75% of the Atmos effect (Neural X maybe 90%). But for 2-channel, it just can't be beat, IMO.

Auromatic is OK for music upmixing, but you have to crank the mode and adjust the increased bass (amazing they couldn't figure out how to do that automatically in the driver; that blows my mind as it's so amateurish), but it's really just an ambient copy/reverb mode. It doesn't "move" anything whereas Logic 7 does (maybe not as violently as PIIx did, but then PLIIx was hit and miss with music, IMO as it can move things you expect in the front to the sides or rear sometimes). Part of Logic 7's appeal is that it doesn't move the front soundstage at all and it's more gentle with out-of-phase effects.

Given the combined Neural Surround with Front Height and Surround Height matching and Logic 7 along with Scatmos Front Wide & SS#2 here giving me essentially 15.1-channel Logic 7 (aka Logic 16), it's hard to comprehend why HK has had so much trouble getting Logic 16 to work properly. I think I get the full intended effect here using technology no newer than 2005 (the Yamaha Neural Surround upmixers) beyond the Marantz 7012's "7.1 input" mode to host it within my Atmos/X/Auro-3D system.

I could still add Pro Logic II (either by getting a used MC-12 or using my existing extra Yamaha HTR-5960 AVR (same ones used for front wide extraction with its Neural Surround mode), but that would mean I'd have to ditch my trusty old laserdisc player to make room for it (whereas the MC-1 fits nicely on top of it). But the Yamaha has its own 7.1 input mode, so technically I could keep the MC-1 and have both plus the Neural Surround mode, but I'd need to duplicate the Nvidia Shield digital outputs for the best connection to both (I could easily do a RCA split to both as I already have RCA into the MC-1 for the Panorama mode and DSP modes as they require either analog or 44.1kHz inputs and KODI on Android Nvidia Shield doesn't like to do 44.1kHz output without a fight. It was easier to just throw some analog connections in as well from the device extracting the digital toslink output). But frankly, I'm quite pleased with Logic 7 for 2-channel music and movies.

As for room correction, the key is to go external with a Mini-DSP. It can control 4 subs instead of the 7012's two or three plus a seat shaker output. I'm not a big fan of correction above Schroeder anyway so it works quite well.

My Home Theater Racks are shown below (The Lexicon MC-1 sits just below the Marantz 7012; the NR1403 units are on the 1st rack and the Yamaha HTR-5960s are in the right rack with Onkyo-ES600 units for SS#2 on the bottom below each rack). I've got the Nvidia Shield and Zidoo X9S both going to the Lexicon MC-1 (optical and RCA) as well as to the Marantz 7012 (HDMI). I could plug the LG Blu-Ray player into the Lexicon as well via its optical jack, but I almost never use it so I haven't bothered. The laserdisc player has only one optical output so it's connected to the 7012 for the occasional DTS laserdisc, but it has a 2nd set of RCA outputs that can be sent to the Lexicon as well as the old GameCube, which benefits from Logic 7 as well; the PS4 goes to the 7012 via HDMI).

There's also some Monoprice impedance matching switches on the right top that let me copy rear heights to surround heights and some other neat tricks. Auro-3D has the Tops speakers carrying the VOG dual mono signal in quad while front/rear heights handle the rest with optional surround heights arrayed from the rear height signals. In total, there's 21 speakers connected (11.1.10 in a 12'x24' room with 3 rows of seats). I plan ot try some floor effects next once I get one more set of PSB speakers in using the Front Wide extraction surround outputs (out-of-phase ambience will go to the floor instead). That should give a more spherical soundstage instead of a dome.

View attachment 353428 View attachment 353429

pioneer laserdisc stays its only format that makes 4k lossless audio really sound like near field mixes , laserdisc rules with theatrical mixes !
those lexicon and other harman kardon are cheap as chips now on ebay , everyone else thinking atmos dsu is best ever
dsu is rather flawed in few ways , its dsp software its not hardware like Dolby cat 150 ( D , E , F ) cards or consumer pro-logic where star wars should be played on ,
pro-logic IIx is okay for 5.1 or stereo surrounds that it expands with sound panning that moves around speaker to speaker , or place extra matrix pro-logic between the back surrounds so the sound pans move though five speakers instead of four , its easy to set up

vog i use DOG channels again overheads are nothing more than stereo overhead zones , mixing can be neat on some atmos movies and lousy on the rest
use matrix decoder connected to each , height 1 height 2 height 3 ( height 4 and 5 if you have trinnov or stormaudio , jbl or anything greater that can do more overheads ) ?
and next you have a kinder LCR for the overheads , also decoder will have matrix surround outputs be it pro-logic with single output or pro-logic IIx will give you four extra outputs to explore experiment with

there are some hidden negative polarity within some atmos , baby driver has some hidden extra sound that i use for ( below floor surround ) yes below matrix surround , until such time there is mark II atmos that has discreet multi array outputs for below surround , i'll do it my way for now

just cheap AVR ebay that has pro-logic IIx , and multi stereo ch , i'll explain later how usefully that can be depending on mood for film playback

otherwise keep the pioneer laserdisc player , it appears be standard no AC-3 but should have optical output ideal for dts laserdiscs

 

[Magnus]

pioneer laserdisc stays its only format that makes 4k lossless audio really sound like near field mixes , laserdisc rules with theatrical mixes !
those lexicon and other harman kardon are cheap as chips now on ebay , everyone else thinking atmos dsu is best ever
dsu is rather flawed in few ways , its dsp software its not hardware like Dolby cat 150 ( D , E , F ) cards or consumer pro-logic where star wars should be played on ,
pro-logic IIx is okay for 5.1 or stereo surrounds that it expands with sound panning that moves around speaker to speaker , or place extra matrix pro-logic between the back surrounds so the sound pans move though five speakers instead of four , its easy to set up

vog i use DOG channels again overheads are nothing more than stereo overhead zones , mixing can be neat on some atmos movies and lousy on the rest
use matrix decoder connected to each , height 1 height 2 height 3 ( height 4 and 5 if you have trinnov or stormaudio , jbl or anything greater that can do more overheads ) ?
and next you have a kinder LCR for the overheads , also decoder will have matrix surround outputs be it pro-logic with single output or pro-logic IIx will give you four extra outputs to explore experiment with

there are some hidden negative polarity within some atmos , baby driver has some hidden extra sound that i use for ( below floor surround ) yes below matrix surround , until such time there is mark II atmos that has discreet multi array outputs for below surround , i'll do it my way for now

just cheap AVR ebay that has pro-logic IIx , and multi stereo ch , i'll explain later how usefully that can be depending on mood for film playback

otherwise keep the pioneer laserdisc player , it appears be standard no AC-3 but should have optical output ideal for dts laserdiscs

I'll be adding 4 floor speakers next (that will make it 25.1). I'll connect them to the surround outputs on the Front Wide extraction AVRs. Uncorrelated out of phase information between the mains and sides will then go to the floor below them instead of coming out of those speakers. That should provide for some interesting ambience. Of course, it can be disabled with a couple clicks on the remote. It'll work with both Atmos/X/Auro and the Lexicon Logic 7 too. This is supposed to be a hobby, right?

Yeah, laserdiscs and DVDs made before around 1998 mostly have theatrical mixes on them (CinemaEQ or Re-EQ should be used). Some studios like Paramount resisted near field mixes until more recently (I think the THX certified Indiana Jones blurays were theatrical mixes), but most have gone loco with the home mixes.

It's really not near or far field treble that's the issue. It's the fact they reduced dynamic range by cranking up the center channel speaker output by 6-10dB that won't allow you to properly play the sound effects at cinema levels without having dialog make your ears bleed. You can turn down the center, but sound effects can go there too and/or dialog can end up elsewhere, potentially creating other mismatches.

I've got the Cinema DTS (AptX) version of the soundtrack to The Matrix converted to home DTS and placed with the movie. It's night and day more dynamic. With dialog matched in level, I measured sound effects like explosions or the hovercraft flying by as it backs into that nook to hide from the squidee sentinels at 8dB louder than the new home Atmos soundtrack. That's the difference between semi-loud and peeing your pants. The older soundtracks on DVD and BD were similar.

The only theatrical mixes I know of now (meaning dynamics etc not treble) are some Turbine mixes (Auro-3D version of Twister is 8-10dB louder on sound effects for matched dialog than the Atmos mix. The mediabook includes both) and Imax Enhanced titles are supposed to be, but I have my doubts.

It just seems like they could easily include both instead of 6 foreign dubs (they should be using subtitles anyway).

I've still got over 100 laserdiscs, but the picture quality is hard to watch on a HD projector when you're used to higher resolutions and picture quality. You could rip the soundtracks and mix them onto ripped BDs and UHD BDs, however,but it would be time consuming. Older DVDs would be easy to rip and remux.

 

[Andysu]

again if i mentioned this in videos or typed it
to get a below matrix surround from the surrounds the original surrounds as configuration was changed partly myself that shared idea from 1989 idea came mind and shared thou sort regret 1998 now , never mind

so the back surround channel everyone familiar Dolby EX , ( my 1989 idea ) the pron version or least what i used was pro-logic , same to the professional version , the consumer version watered it down and only used 3 channels , it ever included the rear - negative part of the decoder , only + signals for LCR that was switched around and used for back

anyway , anyway , also around 1998 i saw a film and chatted to one of the projectionists standing at the rear right of the auditorium , we chatted and watched the movie opening to , the peacemaker 1997 SR-D , train and as it leaves the camera moves upwards the train moves below the camera angle and train sound is panned into the surrounds to where the surrounds are located on upper part of the back wall ( only ) in the cinema , we then both turned towards each other and said at same time , " the train should have sounded below us " lol he was thinking the same as i was

so the below surround became next project idea 1998 which didn't diy it till around , when ? somewhere in around 2000's been using it for while now

so basically i switched the centre back surround , upside down flipped it around and stuck the centre like rear back speaker on the floor underneath the cinema seating and it works

there's scene in unbroken where airplane is heading towards other plane shooting and passes directly below the airplane , typically the sound is heard on the sidewall surrounds which makes no sense since the plane went below , thou really wouldn't hear it much the inside of the plane would be so noisy loud to hear planes on the outside

the only trade off is the steering vectors , also a lot more besides this , i look for image and what moving sound objects were on the screen ? or off screen sounds or on-screen sounds as well as visual/sound continuity ,

were we stand/seated or laying down on the floor is where we hear the sound as our ears are hearing it in that location position

waiting for the true discrete multi below surround , as well as updated screen speakers which not much changed since 1940 just adding more behind screen and side/back walls
all the audience seated tapping their feet against the floor , know they can hear it as well as others , so below surround does exist , once its done for cinema/home that's it , manufactures won't have anything left/else to sell to us

 

[Andysu]

i may watch the opening to this again to no day ,

i think i mentioned if selecting AVP AVR ( multi ch stereo ) mode and using REW sound generator pink noise can be sent to all channels and by muting most channels so one can be adjusted or frequency sweep ,
also if using two REW each one can be set to + pink noise / the other REW set - pink noise , the - pink noise gets sent to my below surrounds , or i can use whole thing and sounds so disorientating dizzy as pink noise is from behind , in front , above , beside me and below me


so i have DOG channels for middle overheads and VOS for below surrounds , Voice of satan and DOG Dolby overhead god , so no need for VOG anymore when there is DOG and reverse it it says god

 

[Andysu]

hollywood re-recording mixers are lousy at front wide mixing , what is point of those channels/speakers ? all they do is make brief few sounds for few seconds and then nothing , total waste of time or , they simply don't know how to use them in mixing and keep them fully active during soundtrack and use them for what ?
atmospherics
music that plays specific individual music notes or instruments ( not random parts of the full music score pumped into those channels for silly sound for few seconds )
dialog panning

if i had to sound rehearsal most of these atmos movies it would take me literally days , as other channels will have to be level/adjusted EQ otherwise all rest of channels in fact only takes one channel that plays active the most to cause audio frequney masking effect

i can see the levels on stormaudio but those levels need to be patched into multi task zone RTA monitor so i can see the actual frequney

 

[Andysu]

the stromaudio Dolby dsu , dts neural x , auro matic upmixers , i mean matrix decoders they seem to keep 5.1 with front wide active , no annoying pumping noise effect that you get with atmos mixes

i think i may try my owner version matrix decoders for front wide and with few plug ins to the decoder or outboard mixer so the annoying-mos pumping signal can still be heard but the speakers will be active with other sound or is any of this really necessary ?

 

[Magnus]

I simply extract Front Wides from between the Mains and Sides using two PLII type AVRs (center output is front wides with main and side inputs). All correlated information goes to the front wides in varying amounts. Think of it as Pro Logic II at an angle with Front Wides being the center and repeated on both sides.

All static object and bed channel pans are moved to where they should be (through the wides) regardless of the competency of the mixer. Neural X does similar on DTS:X Pro systems, but it doesn't work with decoded Atmos while this does. Even Auro-3D gets discretely output front wides as a result. The bottom line is perfectly smooth panning from mains to sides.

I do the same for SS#2 between sides and rears and extract Tops between Front/Rear Heights (Auro automatically gets quad mono VOG/TS as it's matrix evenly between front/rear heights when no separate VOG is sent out). I simply don't have the problems with certain speakers not playing due to morons mixing the Atmos soundtracks. Everything works. People make fun of Scatmos on AVS, but I guarantee my system does things even an Altitude32 can't do as a result and it cost 1/15 as much.

 

[Magnus]

Does anyone happen to know if the Lexicon DC-1 or MC-1 remotes work at all with a MC-12? I can get a good deal on a Lexicon MC-12 (V5.25 firmware installed), but of course it has no remote.

I've got the original DC-1 remote and a MC-1 remote is on the way (the DC-1 remote mostly works with the MC-1 already, just missing newer shortcut buttons for 2-channel and the like). A MC-12 without a working remote wouldn't be too useful.

 

[ernestcarl]

The center in stereo Logic 7 is 3dB louder than the phantom center (on my V2 firmware DC-1, this can be corrected by choosing the +3dB "enhanced dialog" option (which oddly doesn't seem to do anything on the MC-1 V4, but works great on the DC-1 V2).

That "center" with a center channel speaker seems to pull some sounds toward it, but not with the phantom center so it sounds best on the DC-1 with a phantom center and +3dB vocal enhancement (there's a bypass button on the DC-1 to quickly compare pure stereo to any mode on it) and that setting matches the stereo sound, but with the surround channel enhancements.

But at least it has a lot of adjustable parameters. I read newer AVR/AVPs by HK had just basic on/off type versions. The MC-1 V4 software I have in my home theater has the most adjustable parameters of the three units I own (I've got a V1 software DC-1 with Dolby Digital and THX only I use in my home gym room in addition to the DC-1 with DTS/DD/THX with V2 software on my Carver AL-III ribbon system with Klipsch surrounds).

I think I understand some of the gist of what you wrote... some remains opaque to me. It appears as though "center spread" is also redundant when you've already got all these other adjustable processing modes.

 

[Magnus]

I think I understand some of the gist of what you wrote... some remains opaque to me. It appears as though "center spread" is also redundant when you've already got all these other adjustable processing modes.

I'm just saying there my Lexicon MC-1 (formerly $6000 when it was new; I paid $130 for it used) is putting out the wrong levels for certain modes in certain configurations.

I would have thought they'd have fixed that in an update. They broke at least one parameter (vocal enhance in Logic 7) that worked on my V2 software DC-1 (The MC-1 is V4).

I've been giving some thought to buying a MC-12 if I can get a good deal on a V5+ model. It has Pro Logic II/IIx modes as well as Neo6 and DTS-ES discrete modes added since the MC-1, but it takes up 3 inches more vertical space (more on the balanced output version) than the MC-1 and wouldn't fit on top of my laserdisc player so I'd have to lose it to fit it on the rack.

 

[dlaloum]

I'm just saying there my Lexicon MC-1 (formerly $6000 when it was new; I paid $130 for it used) is putting out the wrong levels for certain modes in certain configurations.

I would have thought they'd have fixed that in an update. They broke at least one parameter (vocal enhance in Logic 7) that worked on my V2 software DC-1 (The MC-1 is V4).

I've been giving some thought to buying a MC-12 if I can get a good deal on a V5+ model. It has Pro Logic II/IIx modes as well as Neo6 and DTS-ES discrete modes added since the MC-1, but it takes up 3 inches more vertical space (more on the balanced output version) than the MC-1 and wouldn't fit on top of my laserdisc player so I'd have to lose it to fit it on the rack.

As long as you don't need height decoding... the MC12 will give you as good a 7.1 setup as you can get...

The only reason to upgrade from an MC12, has always been to get the later decoders and formats.... and all the feeds have fallback to 5.1/7.1 and few are the AVR's/AVP's that match the quality of the MC12...

My DC1 and MC1 left the household about 18 years ago - when I decided to move to HDMI.... It was not an upgrade.
It took another generation of AVR (and circa 8 years) before the HDMI setup sounded on a par with my earlier MC1 setup... (from unreliable auditory memory)...

But the current setup is excellent. I use an Integra DRX3.4 as a surround & height amp, and as a mains pre.
Still, 90%+ of what I listen to is 5.1 or stereo.... so an MC12HD would easily cover most of my needs!
Everything is HDMI nowadays...

 

[Magnus]

As long as you don't need height decoding... the MC12 will give you as good a 7.1 setup as you can get...

The only reason to upgrade from an MC12, has always been to get the later decoders and formats.... and all the feeds have fallback to 5.1/7.1 and few are the AVR's/AVP's that match the quality of the MC12...

My DC1 and MC1 left the household about 18 years ago - when I decided to move to HDMI.... It was not an upgrade.
It took another generation of AVR (and circa 8 years) before the HDMI setup sounded on a par with my earlier MC1 setup... (from unreliable auditory memory)...

But the current setup is excellent. I use an Integra DRX3.4 as a surround & height amp, and as a mains pre.
Still, 90%+ of what I listen to is 5.1 or stereo.... so an MC12HD would easily cover most of my needs!
Everything is HDMI nowadays...

Either way, it would be plugged into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 inputs so I wouldn't have to give up Atmos, but rather like with the MC-1 currently connected, I'd have more options from which to choose for particular sources.

For example, I think Logic 7 with arrayed overheads (kind of like an Auro-3D "wall of sound" effect), Logic 7 does a better job with Dolby Stereo sources than DSU or Neural X. I think it seems to do better with 2-channel sources in general. Whatever overhead gains there are don't compare to the expanded ear level surrounds.

Now with 5.1 or 7.1 sources, I think Neural X is usually fantastic. But even there it's pretty impressive what Logic 7 can do with 5.1 cores. It usually sounds very close to the 7.1 mix and the HRTF effect I get from Neural Surround arrayed with straight overhead copies, it get sounds layered very similar (if not quite as close to the ceiling) right about 50-70% of the time compared to the Atmos renders of the same Atmos music (using the 5.1 EX cores), which is pretty amazing, IMO as I wouldn't expect it to have any separation of images sounds at all. Neural X gets it right maybe 85-90% of the time, IMO (not scientific, but rough estimates from observations).

It'd be neat to compare Logic 7 with Pro Logic II Music directly, for instance on the MC-12. I haven't heard a movie in PLII for about 6 years now (I use PLII in Scatmos, but that's not the same as watching a movie in it directly). I don't know if it's worth giving up my laserdisc player, however as the MC-1 does pretty darn well already.

 

[patoulol]

I simply extract Front Wides from between the Mains and Sides using two PLII type AVRs (center output is front wides with main and side inputs). All correlated information goes to the front wides in varying amounts. Think of it as Pro Logic II at an angle with Front Wides being the center and repeated on both sides.

All static object and bed channel pans are moved to where they should be (through the wides) regardless of the competency of the mixer. Neural X does similar on DTS:X Pro systems, but it doesn't work with decoded Atmos while this does. Even Auro-3D gets discretely output front wides as a result. The bottom line is perfectly smooth panning from mains to sides.

I do the same for SS#2 between sides and rears and extract Tops between Front/Rear Heights (Auro automatically gets quad mono VOG/TS as it's matrix evenly between front/rear heights when no separate VOG is sent out). I simply don't have the problems with certain speakers not playing due to morons mixing the Atmos soundtracks. Everything works. People make fun of Scatmos on AVS, but I guarantee my system does things even an Altitude32 can't do as a result and it cost 1/15 as much.

I don't understand: how would multiplying the PLII processors be better than a trinnov in DTS X PRO?

 

[bigjohns97]

Multi-channel Stereo for music is my choice.

 

[Magnus]

I don't understand: how would multiplying the PLII processors be better than a trinnov in DTS X PRO?

It's obvious you're confused since you're talking about DTS:X when I'm talking Dolby Atmos.

Many Atmos movies don't use Front Wides even when there's correlated content between the mains and sides and this is due to fixed bed channel panning that never gets converted in Home Atmos (they're meant to be arrayed in Cinema Atmos, but Home Atmos has no way to do that and they only pan between bed speakers not object speakers) and fixed objects (ala Disney) that essentially do the same thing.

Thus, there are many (maybe even most) Atmos movies that very little to no Front Wide content whatsoever. Seeing that Atmos is the king of immersive audio not DTS:X or Auro-3D, this means most movies simply will not use (or barely use) your Front Wides (and other locations outside 7.1.2) very much, if at all even when you have a $32k Trinnov.

So-called "Scatmos" (using two PLII AVRs to extract a "center" between two existing bed channels eliminates this issue entirely because it extracts all correlated waveforms occurring between the two input channels and couldn't care less about the source of them.

Thus, you get any sounds panned between the sides and mains passing through the Front Wides the same way Pro Logic has dialog in your center channel with old 2-channel movies because it's the same steering logic matrix mechanism being used in a different location.

Neural X does the same thing for up to 30 channels on a Trinnov Altitude32, but of course it only works with 2.0->7.1 and DTS:X signals. So again, Atmos on a Trinnov Altitude32 will sit there with the Front Wides and other speakers outside of 7.1.2/7.1.4 silent, turning your $100k+ system into a lowly 7.1.4 limited AVP equivalent.

 

[patoulol]

It's obvious you're confused since you're talking about DTS:X when I'm talking Dolby Atmos.

Many Atmos movies don't use Front Wides even when there's correlated content between the mains and sides and this is due to fixed bed channel panning that never gets converted in Home Atmos (they're meant to be arrayed in Cinema Atmos, but Home Atmos has no way to do that and they only pan between bed speakers not object speakers) and fixed objects (ala Disney) that essentially do the same thing.

Thus, there are many (maybe even most) Atmos movies that very little to no Front Wide content whatsoever. Seeing that Atmos is the king of immersive audio not DTS:X or Auro-3D, this means most movies simply will not use (or barely use) your Front Wides (and other locations outside 7.1.2) very much, if at all even when you have a $32k Trinnov.

So-called "Scatmos" (using two PLII AVRs to extract a "center" between two existing bed channels eliminates this issue entirely because it extracts all correlated waveforms occurring between the two input channels and couldn't care less about the source of them.

Thus, you get any sounds panned between the sides and mains passing through the Front Wides the same way Pro Logic has dialog in your center channel with old 2-channel movies because it's the same steering logic matrix mechanism being used in a different location.

Neural X does the same thing for up to 30 channels on a Trinnov Altitude32, but of course it only works with 2.0->7.1 and DTS:X signals. So again, Atmos on a Trinnov Altitude32 will sit there with the Front Wides and other speakers outside of 7.1.2/7.1.4 silent, turning your $100k+ system into a lowly 7.1.4 limited AVP equivalent.

if I understood correctly you stay in native atmos but you upmix the wides with PLII ?

 

[Magnus]

if I understood correctly you stay in native atmos but you upmix the wides with PLII ?

Yes, I take the pre-outs from the AVR (after Atmos processing) and take say Left Main and Left Side Surround and plug them into the Left/Right inputs of a PLII AVR. Pick a decoder mode (Neo6 and Neural Surround also work in addition to Pro Logic and Pro Logic II) and that input is removed from the inputs while the resulting center output gives you a mostly discrete output between the two input speakers.

Repeat this for the right side and you have Front Wides that always work for any decoded surround mode including Auro-3D which doesn't normally support Front Wides. It even works with Logic 7 output on my Lexicon MC-1 plugged into my 7.1 inputs on my Marantz 7012.

You can go one further. For my overhead speakers I invert the phase of one of the inputs between Front Heights and Rear Heights. This makes the correlated output come out of the surround outputs instead. There are two of them spaced apart about 30 degrees. I just flip the polarity back to normal on that "side" by swapping the +/- leads on those speaker outputs.

Thus, I get two "Tops" extracted from each side giving me Heights+Tops (8 ceiling speakers) from two PLII AVRs. Atmos demos show the sounds are where they're supposed to be.

You can only normally get Heights+Tops from a Storm or Trinnov processor. Better yet, you can get around other home Atmos limitations. For example, the cinema version of Ready Player One uses "Bed Heights" which were meant to play through all ceiling speakers but the Atmos home encoder only put them in Top Middle (phantom imaged with Heights or Tops), but if you have 6 overheads you only get Top Middle and with 8 or 10 overheads (Storm/Trinnov) you only get either Tops or Top Middle respectively.

On my system, all I have to do is select multichannel stereo mode on the two overhead PLII AVRs and I get the cinema style full arrayed Heights+Tops signal in that movie so direct overhead sounds follow you around across all three rows of seating just like it did at the cinema.