Uptone ISO Regen Review and Measurements

[Sal1950]

https://m.imgur.com/r/MovieGifs/zIhGHOu

"He was especially hard on the little things."

A man after my own heart.

 

[Superdad]

So what does this mean? My sense is that the layout and implementation of USB in Iso Regen is sub-optimal and not tested (or tested but not disclosed).

No, it means you don't understand the Silanna isolator chip.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...-a-dacs-output/?do=findComment&comment=705472

 

[amirm]

No, it means you don't understand the Silanna isolator chip.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...-a-dacs-output/?do=findComment&comment=705472

Hi Alex. I don't see anything about Silanna isolator chip there. I have looked twice now to find specs for it and none exists without contacting the company and signing an NDA.

This is what you said there though:

The supply for my laptop and Audio Precision have not changed positions with the hub or your Iso Regen. The hub and Iso Regen have been connected on my workbench power strip.

On your #1 theory, here is the measurements I just made with the AC plug in one direction and then the other on the Insignia Hub as opposed to Iso Regen:

As you see, there is no difference in the DAC output whether the Insignia AC adapter is plugged in one way, or the other. The Iso Regen still remains as the only device that is inducing this mains frequency into the chain.

Let me ask you this: prior to my testing, had you done similar measurements, saw the same leakage and investigated it? Or is all of this new to you?

 

[amirm]

Let me now go back to this in your CA post:

You are making pretty serious allegations with no data. When doing the long cable test, I was actually hoping it would allow your device to shine and do what it says it will do, i.e. shine in the way it can regenerate the USB signal. I got the idea from stereophile review of original Regen: https://www.stereophile.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen-measurements

I did that test but alas, your device showed no improvements -- just the same as what JA found in stereophile review. On a whim, I then tried it with a second extension. Once i noticed I was getting errors, I assumed again that this would favor things for you, not the other way around. I thought with all the knowledge you say your designer has of USB, that he would have a world-class implementation that is tested and verified to be the best. Alas, as the measurements show, that is not the case with Iso Regen. Its ability to recover from from marginal USB signal is somewhat worse than a complete DAC for $70.

Yes, with two cables it is outside of USB spec. But, implementations must always have headroom. Temperatures, voltages, etc. change so you need to have good 20 to 30% margin of performance. The Insignia hub clearly has such margin. Alas, yours does not. It is just a data point and reflects reality of one performance aspect of your device. People can judge it for what it is. I have said no more or less than what it shows.

Let me ask you this: has your device been to a USB certification lab? Or have you run equiv. measurements and can share that with us?

While on that topic, has the ISO Regen been through EMC certification (FCC/CISPR 22)?

 

[amirm]

Let me make sure the plot is not lost here.

I have post a lot of different measurements because accusations continue to fly about my competence in measuring this simple digital device. Theory after theory is put forward by forum members and UpTone representative, Alex. Instead of getting angry and resorting to name calling, I have gone along with them, and chased all of those theories. There have been secondary outcomes during those endeavours such as discovering the low frequency mains leakage while testing without averaging. Yet, accusations and pretty mean spirited ones I might add, continue to pour in. That's fine.

But I think the larger picture is getting lost in that the original message of this review stands: I have not been able to find any benefit to UpTone Iso Regen to any DAC that is not downright bad. Even the cheapest of the cheapest DACs, the Behringer UMC-204HD has seen no benefit from the Iso Regen. The measurements don't show it. Nor do my admitted quick subjective testing.

I have tested DACs up to the $2,000 mark with the Mytek and same results. I have tested mid-end DACs and no difference.

Alex complains but he has not provided any counterpoints other than he is selling a lot of these to audiophiles. I am not here to determine the causes of his business success. I was asked by a member to measure this device and see what it does and that is what I have been doing:

Most people know that I tried to buy it but UpTone would not sell it to me. So it came through another channel and here we are.

I love to hear from Alex one scenario where he has personally tested this device where it made a measurements and subjective improvement. Tell me the model number of the DAC and how it was tested and let's get that on the bench to measure and do some listening tests. I don't know how much more I can do to favor UpTone's position.

In absence of that, I am being responsive to requests and questions from this and CA forum.

 

[Thomas savage]

Leaving behind the measurements for a moment and addressing the ' I can hear the improvements ' claims , can we not sort out some controlled listening tests?

@Superdad seems very confident this device makes a decent audible improvement when use as designed so I'm guessing a controlled listening test would suit him too?

I'm not sure how practical this is but thought I'd ask.

 

[amirm]

It is the thing to do. I am happy to fly to a HiFi store near Alex' home to make it more convenient for him to participate. Alternatively we could go to the home/nearby hifi store to do the same test with one of the advocates of the device.

 

[Thomas savage]

woud it be possible to have one of these devices fitted with a bypass switch ? That might make things easier with minimal fussing about when doing the listening test, I'm not sure if it would work but there would be benefits if you could quickly switch between no ISO regen and ISO regen..

 

[amirm]

It has an on/off switch which is for galvanic isolation and that seems to work on the fly. We could make it more robust with an external switch if needed.

Getting it in and out of the system is a bit of an ordeal. In my testing Foobar fails with an error and requires retry to make it work and at any rate, it takes a minute or so to switch from direct to Iso Regen.

 

[Jinjuku]

It's been asked before: Would Alex himself or person(s) of his choosing carve out just an hour at Octobers RMAF to do sit for a controlled evaluation.

He will not have ANYONE from the objective community out to his residence even though he stated with a high degree of confidence any time, any day of the week, on his system, using his material when I asked.

We know how that went.

 

[Jinjuku]

woud it be possible to have one of these devices fitted with a bypass switch ? That might make things easier with minimal fussing about when doing the listening test, I'm not sure if it would work but there would be benefits if you could quickly switch between no ISO regen and ISO regen..

I would get a DAC that allows for Sound Mixer to be loaded in the Windows 10 Sound Control Panel and that way two of the same DACs' can receive output at the same time driving identical headphones and a 10 round trial conducted.

Just change HP's while playing back. No interruption in playback.

 

[Jinjuku]

Honestly you will waist time and money, we went from a distortion device (Regen) to an isolation device (iso Regen).
We are talking about asynchronous mode, remember so re-clocking, regenerating, blabla is just marketing BS.
The only way to have an effect is to be outside the USB specs like the lush from peterST, a delay you create DCD and you make the DAC oscillators singing the way you want.

Sounds like fixed EQ no matter the equipment or room.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have to say the 'lush' USB cable thread( lush in the U.K. Also means alcoholic) is some of the finest shilling I have seen for quite some time.
Bravo!
Keith

 

[Jinjuku]

I have to say the 'lush' USB cable thread( lush in the U.K. Also means alcoholic) is some of the finest shilling I have seen for quite some time.
Bravo!
Keith

I was going to use Randy Bender as my forum handle at one point.

 

[Sal1950]

woud it be possible to have one of these devices fitted with a bypass switch ? That might make things easier with minimal fussing about when doing the listening test, I'm not sure if it would work but there would be benefits if you could quickly switch between no ISO regen and ISO regen..

Easiest to buy a second $79 Behringer, feed them both the same stream, one with the ISO in the middle, and switch between two inputs on the preamp, no?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Easiest to buy a second $79 Behringer, feed them both the same stream, one with the ISO in the middle, and switch between two inputs on the preamp, no?

Not sure about that. Does USB audio signal flow from the PC software driver to all output USB ports (two in this case) on the PC or on a USB hub simultaneously or is it specific to a single USB output port via a "handshake" after DAC connection is established? I realize I can hook my single DAC up to any USB output port and the driver will find it and connect. But, with two DACS, I am confused. I wonder if the driver and USB might get confused too. Has anyone tried this?

But, yes, switching the analog in a preamp should be quicker if it will not disrupt the digital stream.

 

[Jinjuku]

Not sure about that. Does USB audio signal flow from the PC software driver to all output USB ports (two in this case) on the PC or on a USB hub simultaneously or is it specific to a single USB output port via a "handshake" after DAC connection is established? I realize I can hook my single DAC up to any USB output port and the driver will find it and connect. But, with two DACS, I am confused. I wonder if the driver and USB might get confused too. Has anyone tried this?

But, yes, switching the analog in a preamp should be quicker if it will not disrupt the digital stream.

If you have Stereo Mix enabled you can send out to multiple sound devices.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you have Stereo Mix enabled you can send out to multiple sound devices.

You sure about this? Seems I tried doing that with Windows not long ago, and you couldn't send to multiple devices that way.

 

[Jinjuku]

You sure about this? Seems I tried doing that with Windows not long ago, and you couldn't send to multiple devices that way.

Let me give it a whirl...

Works like I said it would:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/ugqkePdiVSllZtGKhJHAbj1UQRfA9e08RHyWv5BOVMK

 

[Superdad]

On your #1 theory, here is the measurements I just made with the AC plug in one direction and then the other on the Insignia Hub as opposed to Iso Regen:

View attachment 8109

As you see, there is no difference in the DAC output whether the Insignia AC adapter is plugged in one way, or the other. The Iso Regen still remains as the only device that is inducing this mains frequency into the chain.

Let me ask you this: prior to my testing, had you done similar measurements, saw the same leakage and investigated it? Or is all of this new to you?

Actually you can readily see the difference from turning around the small Best Buy hub's wall wart! For almost all the harmonics of 60Hz the green and yellow traces are in opposite phase, with the green trace having much lower harmonics than the yellow. This is just as predicted. It just happens that the 22W Mean Well (which of course exhibits larger excursions due to its size) is reinforcing with the leakage currents of your AP analyzer. If you can turn the plug around of either the Mean Well or the AP (just one, not both), then you will see a decrease in the amplitude of the spikes.

And yes, we have done similar leakage tests many times. Just between device supplies--not with an analyzer that also had an SMPS. If you have a differential problem you can easily play around with any two PS to look at leakage current interactions. Just put a 0.1ohm resistor between the DC "grounds" of the two supplies (and also put a load on each supply).

Really sorry you have gotten so hung up this leakage current issue. It is not that complicated. And only about 30% of our clients use the Mean Well SMPS with our product.

As for the Silanna:
It it is well known by all who use the chip that really poor SI will cause it to have duty-cycle errors in its interface with a hub chip (that's why your recordings of the 23-ft. cable sound worse not better). If that galvanic isolator chip was removed, the ISO REGEN would perform with the long cable just as your Best Buy hub did (only putting out superior SI and using ultra-low-phase noise clock, and better 5VBUS).
As mentioned, we could easily have put another hub chip in front of the Silanna (iFi does this in their forthcoming iGalvanic). But we tried that and did not like the results for other reasons.