What is this? No golden ears!

[DanielT]

Rated at 2v does not mean both players will output exactly at 2v when playing max signal.

So, first thing is to check if they are outputting same voltage when playing the same signal.

Also, if your amp and speakers have significantly higher noise/distortions than your player, you might not hear minor differences anyway between players. Do you know the measurements of your amp and speakers?

I have a multimeter so ..

So:
Technics SL-PD787 Compact Disc Changer vs Sony BDP-S570 Blu-ray Disc Player

Speaker:
JPW P1.Two-way speaker. Sealed, 20 liter box, 8 Ohm, 89 dB, 2.83V / 1M.
Speaker elements:
Bass element: VIFA M21WG-09-08
Tweeter: VIFA D19TD-05-08

Headphones:
Sennheiser HD 555

Amp:
Harman Kardon HK670

Harman Kardon HK670/2 Stereo Integrated Amplifier Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

Then see # 21 in this thread. And now this, ..this time.

Technics SL-PD787 Compact Disc Changer Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

It is the general information, some measurements on them I know nothing about. And absolutely nothing measured on my particular specimens.

Edit:
... look for multimiter ... I'll be back..

Edit 2:
Haven't found a multimeter yet but I know it's here somewhere. I will find it. Listens to the CDs. I have to say one thing it's damn spooky to switch players. Of course, I hear no difference between these either, even though I really try to detect difference. Spooky that it's zip, nada zero difference. I know that is the case (technically, theoretically) but to really test, brr it is almost scary in some way (although it is completely natural). BUT this time I will measure with the multimeter and then see if I can dot exactly which player it is (switch RCA, the inputs the amplifier).

EXACTLY the same headphones as well as speakers. So I do not hear a shit difference.

To all the subjectivists who think they hear small differences, with gadgets that in themselves have low distortion, noise. Sure. Come and visit. Do you dare to put a month's salary on that you can score right? You are more than welcome to me.
(Reservation .Are you young, like a teenager, and have hearing intact, able to hear really high frequency, so well then I do not know if you can dot differences between the players, maybe... probability not)

Get a grip, ..of reality.

Tomorrow I will return.
Additionally, yes it is not state of the art "High End Hifi" I am testing with. A pair of simple / normal speakers, amp perfectly ok. Neither bad nor good.With that said, I still have a very hard time believing that I would hear any difference with "High end stuff". Maybe but I'm skeptical. Maybe this can help, see picture.

 

[DanielT]

First listen. I know which player enters the AUX or CD input. Now randomly replace the RCA cables.
When I dot right or wrong? Every time when replacing the RCA cables I do not know from which player output they come. Results:

Right. guessed = R
Wrong. guess = W

1:R
2:R
3:F
4:F
5:F
6:F
7:R
8:F
9:F
10:R
11:R
12:R
13:F
14:F
15:F
16:R
17:R
18:R
19:R
20:F

So, you see where it is leaning. I was concentrated. The multimeter , no idea to use. I had no clamps and no CD's with long lasting sine tone. But as you can see it was not needed.

That was the result with my ears and my Hifi stuff.

Edit:
I have a slightly better player I can test with, but I do not know if it would give any other result.Doubtful about that. Besides, I do not have it here right now.

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/denon/dbp-2012ud.shtml

 

[MattHooper]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

.........

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar?

Yes I had a bit of experience with that.

First of all, I consider digital sound/DACs a "solved" technology at this point (and has been for quite a while). I just don't think about "the sound of DACs." I have bought Benchmark DACs (DAC 1 and then DAC 2L) because they had features I wanted (e.g. pre-amp type features) and also because I can be confident in the engineering - that they won't screw up the sound giving a coloration either deliberately or inadvertently.

That said: Many in the 90's figured DACs/CDPs were a solved technology and that any properly functioning CDP/DAC should sound indistinguishable. I was mostly of that mindset too...and yet seemed to hear some distinct differences between a Meridian 508.20 CDP and my Sony CDP, to the extent I bought the Meridian. Same happened when I had a chance to try a Mietner Bidat DAC - the sound seemed distinctly different from either the Sony and especially from the Meridian.

Mindful of sighted bias I ended up doing some blinded shoot-outs (randomized/levels matched using a voltmeter at the speaker terminals).
I was able to easily identify each one under blinded conditions...via exactly the same sonic signatures I felt I had been hearing in sighted tests.

Dunno what was up with that...but those were the results.

Golden ears?

 

[DanielT]

Yes I had a bit of experience with that.

First of all, I consider digital sound/DACs a "solved" technology at this point (and has been for quite a while). I just don't think about "the sound of DACs." I have bought Benchmark DACs (DAC 1 and then DAC 2L) because they had features I wanted (e.g. pre-amp type features) and also because I can be confident in the engineering - that they won't screw up the sound giving a coloration either deliberately or inadvertently.

That said: Many in the 90's figured DACs/CDPs were a solved technology and that any properly functioning CDP/DAC should sound indistinguishable. I was mostly of that mindset too...and yet seemed to hear some distinct differences between a Meridian 508.20 CDP and my Sony CDP, to the extent I bought the Meridian. Same happened when I had a chance to try a Mietner Bidat DAC - the sound seemed distinctly different from either the Sony and especially from the Meridian.

Mindful of sighted bias I ended up doing some blinded shoot-outs (randomized/levels matched using a voltmeter at the speaker terminals).
I was able to easily identify each one under blinded conditions...via exactly the same sonic signatures I felt I had been hearing in sighted tests.

Dunno what was up with that...but those were the results.

Golden ears?

Quite right you can have Golden ears, or you are more accustomed to listening and comparing. With my stuff, what I did, hmn possibly you could detect and distinguish them, but... well I doubt that.

There is a lot that comes into play, apart from the quality of the Hifi stuff itself:
Age (hear higher frequencies), concentration, attitude (if you do not want to hear a difference, you will not hear a difference in a blind test), habit of detecting differences, how much background noise, how big a dB difference can it be? How can you be completely sure that the signal strength / dB does not change when you test? Are there several who test , then single or double blind test? And so on and so forth.

I might, observe say that I MAY be able to practice, step by step to get better at hearing differences but damn it would be sad for my wallet as I have to buy more expensive and more expensive Hifi in that case....however, more then.

Come up with something now! When I'm out on my flea market rounds, I'll find the absolute worst CD player I can find and then test it vs mine:

Denon DBP-2012UD Blu-Ray Disc Player Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

Round three in other words ... (sometime, maybe).

 

[egellings]

I wonder if the analog output and filtering stages of the players could be contributing to perceived sonic variations among them. The digital sections would likely be identical, but not so for the analog sections. It might be comparable to perceived sonic differences in line stages.

 

[DanielT]

I wonder if the analog output and filtering stages of the players could be contributing to perceived sonic variations among them. The digital sections would likely be identical, but not so for the analog sections. It might be comparable to perceived sonic differences in line stages.

Well, what do I know but it would be hell if I could not detect the difference in round three I mention in my previous post. And think of the title in the thread, possibly I'm lousy at hearing differences as well.

I can plug the DAC Topping E30 into one of them and use the player as a transport. But hum then I end up in the problem regarding any level differences, dB. But if I do not hear any differences then. ..hm..I have to think about it a bit.

 

[DanielT]

You can see it like this. This is me who tested with my conditions. It would be fun if more people tested the same. Or different variants. Somewhere the line goes, for everyone (individually) when you really hear differences. The question is more when that happens. If you have a friend with you, you can easily test it. If you have access to EQ, well ask your friend to turn the knobs until you can hear the difference. Sooner or later you will of course hear the difference. A difference that is not imagined.

I find this interesting:

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

High Resolution Audio: Does It Matter?

High Resolution Audio: Does It Matter? By Amir Majidimehr [Note: This article was published in the January 2015 issue of Widescreen Review Magazine. This is a slightly revised edition.] Yes! Thought I give you the short answer first in case you are impatient like me. If you have read my...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[MattHooper]

Quite right you can have Golden ears, or you are more accustomed to listening and comparing. With my stuff, what I did, hmn possibly you could detect and distinguish them, but... well I doubt that.

There is a lot that comes into play, apart from the quality of the Hifi stuff itself:
Age (hear higher frequencies), concentration, attitude (if you do not want to hear a difference, you will not hear a difference in a blind test), habit of detecting differences, how much background noise, how big a dB difference can it be? How can you be completely sure that the signal strength / dB does not change when you test? Are there several who test , then single or double blind test? And so on and so forth.

I might, observe say that I MAY be able to practice, step by step to get better at hearing differences but damn it would be sad for my wallet as I have to buy more expensive and more expensive Hifi in that case....however, more then.

Come up with something now! When I'm out on my flea market rounds, I'll find the absolute worst CD player I can find and then test it vs mine:

Denon DBP-2012UD Blu-Ray Disc Player Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

Round three in other words ... (sometime, maybe).

The golden ears was a joke of course. I wouldn't be able to distinguish between any properly designed contemporary DAC, I'm sure.

 

[MattHooper]

I wonder if the analog output and filtering stages of the players could be contributing to perceived sonic variations among them. The digital sections would likely be identical, but not so for the analog sections. It might be comparable to perceived sonic differences in line stages.

I figured the analog stages were the most likely culprit for what I heard.

Though, I also later tried the "updated" Meridian 508.24 (24 bit vs 20 bit), and actually preferred the sound of the earlier 20 bit player. There was a very distinct sort of timbre, texture and density to the sound of the 508.20 that distinguished it from the Sony CDP and Mietner DAC (and to my ears, the 508.24, though that one I didn't blind shoot out), reminded me a bit more of vinyl. And interestingly, the Meridian 508.20 had that rep among audiophiles as sounding more like analog/vinyl.

I could have put my perception of the Meridian 508.20 down to perhaps being influenced by having heard somewhere it sounds "more analog," but as it turns out, it was exactly the type of "analog/vinyl" character I heard from that unit that allowed me to easily distinguish it in the blind shoot outs.

Too bad I can't find any measurements for the 508.20 that could perhaps explain this.

 

[tomtoo]

Lets imagine there is a tiny difference, that you sure can abx.

So how you decide now, whats more near to the original?

 

[DanielT]

Lets imagine there is a tiny difference, that you sure can abx.

So how you decide now, whats more near to the original?

Speaking of the original and the same, the reason why I came up with this project is due to, see attached pictures.

 

[tomtoo]

Speaking of the original and the same, the reason why I came up with this project is due to, see attached pictures.

No i mean, how do you decide this or that is better(more near to the original recording). What is your reference point? I mean this is a question to all, not only to you.

Lets imagine there would be a tiny difference in FR. You can abx it. But what would tell you FR A is more near to the original recording than FR B?

 

[DanielT]

No i mean, how do you decide this or that is better(more near to the original recording). What is your reference point?

Hm, I do not know.

 

[tomtoo]

Hm, I do not know.

Me too either. Thats why i ask. Special the people with golden ears that can hear tinyest differences. How do they decide what is more near to the original? Hearing a difference is one thing, deciding whats more near to he original is a different animal.

 

[solderdude]

The multimeter , no idea to use.

You are testing audio so the red lead goes in the right ear and the black lead in the left ear.
Set the meter to resistance.

 

[DanielT]

You are testing audio so the red lead goes in the right ear and the black lead in the left ear.
Set the meter to resistance.

Do not know if I want to test myself and realize how much resistance I have between my ears. I hope it flows on relatively, normally, between them.
....in my brain, resistance, sluggish, for those who have resistance between the ears and did not understand what I meant....

 

[Holmz]

You should probably not hear any difference as long as THD + N / SINAD is below the level of audibility plus steady frequency response.

Actually, Im most fascinated by how much good sound from a used player bought for $ 30 you can get.

Tested mostly because I had the two players and nothing directly better to do at the moment.

That will save you money that will be needed for the power cords, fuses, and interconnects.


I was on another forum looking at players and DACS to replace my 25 year old CD player, and got a bunch of suggestions for 5-10 k$ setups.
At this point, I would be more inclined to get new speakers and keep the old CD player.

 

[Holmz]

I suggest you also test your hearing sensitivity.

Start with 0.5db online blind tests. Post your results here.

https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5

Got 80 with IEMs and the Mrs watching the Aussie open blaring over the TV.
what does that indicate?

And any more similar or different links?

 

[DSJR]

Back in the day, Meridian was a maker to be cautious of. Constantly tweaking and changing products internally, every six months called for a new demo set of gear to keep up to date, this encouraged by the rep of the time. Only a few models appeared to be left alone. I heard two 506's six months apart (I know, I know), but the subjective impressions were opposites of each other. No idea of any measured differences, but I'd agree that the analogue output stages (then mostly separate I recall) may well have had their filtering and distortions tweaked a little to favour particular magazine reviewers (you think this wasn't done?)..

Listen to a subtly 'flavoured' sound 'character' for a while and anything truthful/neutral will almost certainly subsequently sound bland and lean.

 

[DanielT]

That will save you money that will be needed for the power cords, fuses, and interconnects.


I was on another forum looking at players and DACS to replace my 25 year old CD player, and got a bunch of suggestions for 5-10 k$ setups.
At this point, I would be more inclined to get new speakers and keep the old CD player.

I know you wrote to make a point. You probably know this. But there may be tips for others:

My suggestion, the Denon I mentioned earlier. I bought used a few months ago for 30 Euro (I was a little lucky, otherwise they go for 50-70 Euro, still it is little money).

Denon DBP-2012UD Blu-Ray Disc Player Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

DAC:

Topping D10s USB DAC and Bridge Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping D10s USB DAC and S/PDIF plus Toslink bridge. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. The D10s has a retail cost of US $99. Let me start by confessing that the original D10 was one of my favorites with its cute orange...

audiosciencereview.com

Streamer with DAC:

Allo Boss2 Review (Stereo Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Allo Boss2 Ethernet (and wifi) streamer/player. It was sent to me by the company for testing and costs US $149 by itself. My tested configuration included the Nirvana power supply which brings the cost up to US $209. I must say, I am very...

audiosciencereview.com

Or

Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs 165,83 € or US $193 (excluding Raspberry Pi and power supply). As the name indicates, this is a streamer built on the popular Raspberry Pi small computer...

audiosciencereview.com

Then with the money you save on what can really make a difference: Speakers, sub, EQ, acoustic fix the listening room.
A decent amp makes sense to have, I should add.

A nice thick rug maybe?

Or go to some nice live concerts.

Edit:
I have a few different players now just to test. Now that I have tested (blind test) I sell them, but I keep Denonen.