Why are single drivers disliked to such an extent by most in this forum?

[hex168]

There are two approaches that I know of to use a fullrange that can work competitively to multi-way speakers:
1) Line array

The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)

After riding along on a few different line array threads I figured this project deserved it's own thread. I wanted to get new speakers for my living room for a while but could not quite find something I liked. The speakers I have right now are just too big to use in a proper setup. In a domestic...

www.diyaudio.com

IDS-25 stereo column speaker array

2) Extreme near field (not quite headphones).

 

[computer-audiophile]

If you think you want even cleaner highs, you can add a tweeter attachment to the Lii Audio F15. Here I used a JBL compression driver. It's the same type like in my JBL Studio 590 floor standing speakers, which gives me 100% sonic satisfaction. The crossover was a bit tricky, I was helped by an old horn speaker expert I have known for decades from the triode festivals and who also has the appropriate measuring equipment.

 

[voodooless]

If you think you want even cleaner highs, you can add a tweeter attachment to the Lii Audio F15. Here I used a JBL compression driver. It's the same type used in my JBL Studio 590, where it gives me 100% sonic satisfaction. The crossover was a bit tricky, I was helped by an old horn speaker expert I have known for decades from the triode festivals and who also has the appropriate measuring equipment.

View attachment 287405

That kind of defeats the purpose of a full-range speaker, doesn’t it. That horn can be crossed at 1 kHz or even lower.. that makes the horn more wide-band than the woofer

 

[computer-audiophile]

That kind of defeats the purpose of a full-range speaker, doesn’t it. That horn can be crossed at 1 kHz or even lower.. that makes the horn more wide-band than the woofer

Yes, of course. It is not even necessary in this case. It was just a finger exercise, like most of what I do in this playground.

 

[ElJaimito]

Well, there are full range electrostatic speakers like the Quads using a single driver ...

ESL 57 has two bass panels and an HF panel in the middle.

 

[mhardy6647]

ESL 57 has two bass panels and an HF panel in the middle.

Indeed.
That it does.

One of the ESL-57s rehabbed by (for) the late Art Dudley and meticulously reported upon by him in his Stereophile column.

Listening #42

"A few of us felt that we were the proverbial voices in the wilderness for a long time." So writes Gary Jacobson, whose Quad ESL website, is my favorite of the many good ones out there.

www.stereophile.com

and

Listening #43

In his June, 2006 "Listening" column, Art Dudley discussed the original Quad ESL loudspeaker, and started to describe the task of refurbishing a 47-year-old pair of them; this month, Art fries a pair of transformers and nearly ruins his new wall oven—but finishes the job nevertheless.

www.stereophile.com

Note the deeply and profoundly arced tweeter panel in the photo above
As most of y'all likely know, the ESL-57 was/is 1) insensitive and 2) unappreciative of higher levels of input power. And it's a big ol' capacitor, load wise (as has been mentioned of other ESLs in this very thread). Other than that, it's easy to drive.

 

[ElJaimito]

Indeed.
That it does.

One of the ESL-57s rehabbed by (for) the late Art Dudley and meticulously reported upon by him in his Stereophile column.

Listening #42

"A few of us felt that we were the proverbial voices in the wilderness for a long time." So writes Gary Jacobson, whose Quad ESL website, is my favorite of the many good ones out there.

www.stereophile.com

and

Listening #43

In his June, 2006 "Listening" column, Art Dudley discussed the original Quad ESL loudspeaker, and started to describe the task of refurbishing a 47-year-old pair of them; this month, Art fries a pair of transformers and nearly ruins his new wall oven—but finishes the job nevertheless.

www.stereophile.com

Note the deeply and profoundly arced tweeter panel in the photo above
As most of y'all likely know, the ESL-57 was/is 1) insensitive and 2) unappreciative of higher levels of input power. And it's a big ol' capacitor, load wise (as has been mentioned of other ESLs in this very thread). Other than that, it's easy to drive.

I had a pair. They were superb, but too sensitive to room positioning. I could not afford the house they needed to be put in

Their imperfections were all about the issues you raise. The sound however, for the epoch? Astounding.

I own a pair of Lowther Acousta/PM6, previously had Jordan Watts single drivers, further back in the day Wharfedale 8 RS/DD and 12 RS/DD. No single driver can cover the 1000:1 ratio that it needs to cover, which is why I sold them all (the 12 RS/DD were stolen). The best single driver speaker I ever owned was the Baxandall designed equalised ELAC 13x8 based WW design. Very good, but no bass or above 15 K. The Lowthers have no bass and cranky top, but astonishing attack.

 

[computer-audiophile]

In a full range single driver loudspeaker comparison (blind test, speakers behind a curtain) in 2008, where I also participated, Jean Sullerot won with a Diatone P610, if I remember correctly.

More Info: https://forums.melaudia.net/showthread.php?tid=436

 

[mhardy6647]

The P610 was/is a good sounding little driver.

 

[Vann]

What would be the case? A respectful and well founded respons to your attack ("armchair engineers")?

Engineers are a touchy bunch....

 

[Blumlein 88]

Indeed.
That it does.

One of the ESL-57s rehabbed by (for) the late Art Dudley and meticulously reported upon by him in his Stereophile column.

Listening #42

"A few of us felt that we were the proverbial voices in the wilderness for a long time." So writes Gary Jacobson, whose Quad ESL website, is my favorite of the many good ones out there.

www.stereophile.com

and

Listening #43

In his June, 2006 "Listening" column, Art Dudley discussed the original Quad ESL loudspeaker, and started to describe the task of refurbishing a 47-year-old pair of them; this month, Art fries a pair of transformers and nearly ruins his new wall oven—but finishes the job nevertheless.

www.stereophile.com

Note the deeply and profoundly arced tweeter panel in the photo above
As most of y'all likely know, the ESL-57 was/is 1) insensitive and 2) unappreciative of higher levels of input power. And it's a big ol' capacitor, load wise (as has been mentioned of other ESLs in this very thread). Other than that, it's easy to drive.

When I had some pristine ESL-57's I made a circuit to light an LED when I was getting near max voltage. I wanted to see the LED shine and not the tweeter panel arcing over. I actually rarely lit the LED. It was better than I expected in putting out sufficient sound without being on the edge of arcing.

 

[DonH56]

ESL 57 has two bass panels and an HF panel in the middle.

That's a good catch; I had forgotten that. I worked at a store that carried 57's and then 63's but graduated and moved away a couple of years after the 63's arrived. At that time there was a group of audiophiles using ESLs so I got to here a number of them (Acoustat, Beveridge, KLH, Quad, and Sound Lab, probably forgot some, and I heard a number of stand-alone 57's as well as a Levinson HQD system or two). I know the ESL-63 added concentric rings in the center panel to emulate a point source (plus the segmentation to delay the driving signal properly), and I lost track after that. I know the last and/or current generation (were there two or three generations after the 63's?) went to two center panels with rings plus 2-4 additional outer panels to support the bass.

My experience with Martin Logan was mixed over the years and again I have not heard them much recently, and not the CSL in many years (just the hybrid models is all local stores seemed to stock). They seem to have improved the panel/woofer integration that was (to me ) a problem 10-20 years ago.

I met Roger Sanders a few times when he was in GA and heard his designs, and ironically have exchanged emails but never visited now that he's only a couple of hours away if that. His ESLs were also hybrids but with a much lower crossover that subjectively integrated better than the ML versions I heard at the time.

I'll defer to @Duke on Sound Lab ESLs; I have not heard them in many years (no dealers nearby), and it was decades ago that I was familiar with them. As is obvious from previous posts I've forgotten their technology basis.

I have little experience with single-driver "full-range" speakers these days; not sure any dealers around stock them, and have not kept up with brands. The ones I have heard in the last decade or two didn't rise above the crowd of multi-driver speakers I have heard. OK midrange, passable but beamy highs, and the bass/HF compromise was always a drawback, just as the physics would predict. Closest I had in-house was a pair of KEFs I gave to my daughter-in-law last year. Wish I could remember the list, maybe half a dozen, but at this point just don't really care.

 

[dfuller]

I am aware that these have a few issues, from IMD, to limited SPL capability, and beaming at higher frequencies, but are they so poor at these aspects that single driver sets are basically a pointless design to consider? Or is there something else about them that makes them such an unattractive option measurement wise?

Yes.

 

[PatentLawyer]

I have Markaudio full range speakers on my desktop. With Dirac, the sound is surprisingly excellent, especially for such little money.

 

[kevinh]

That's a good catch; I had forgotten that. I worked at a store that carried 57's and then 63's but graduated and moved away a couple of years after the 63's arrived. At that time there was a group of audiophiles using ESLs so I got to here a number of them (Acoustat, Beveridge, KLH, Quad, and Sound Lab, probably forgot some, and I heard a number of stand-alone 57's as well as a Levinson HQD system or two). I know the ESL-63 added concentric rings in the center panel to emulate a point source (plus the segmentation to delay the driving signal properly), and I lost track after that. I know the last and/or current generation (were there two or three generations after the 63's?) went to two center panels with rings plus 2-4 additional outer panels to support the bass.

My experience with Martin Logan was mixed over the years and again I have not heard them much recently, and not the CSL in many years (just the hybrid models is all local stores seemed to stock). They seem to have improved the panel/woofer integration that was (to me ) a problem 10-20 years ago.

I met Roger Sanders a few times when he was in GA and heard his designs, and ironically have exchanged emails but never visited now that he's only a couple of hours away if that. His ESLs were also hybrids but with a much lower crossover that subjectively integrated better than the ML versions I heard at the time.

I'll defer to @Duke on Sound Lab ESLs; I have not heard them in many years (no dealers nearby), and it was decades ago that I was familiar with them. As is obvious from previous posts I've forgotten their technology basis.

I have little experience with single-driver "full-range" speakers these days; not sure any dealers around stock them, and have not kept up with brands. The ones I have heard in the last decade or two didn't rise above the crowd of multi-driver speakers I have heard. OK midrange, passable but beamy highs, and the bass/HF compromise was always a drawback, just as the physics would predict. Closest I had in-house was a pair of KEFs I gave to my daughter-in-law last year. Wish I could remember the list, maybe half a dozen, but at this point just don't really care.

The Sound Labs just have t single diaphragm but use 2 transformers to drive it IIRC.

 

[Hexspa]

oh you mean one cone that does it all 20-20?

have you got a commercial example that you would consider to be decent?

These are supposed to be good though narrow directivity http://www.dmaxaudio.com/en/sc5

 

[mhardy6647]

I was thrilled to acquire a nice pair of ESL-57s about 15 years ago and, though I don't use them often, they're here permanently. They were (are) really amazing little loudspeakers within their limitations. About as uncolored a transducer as I have ever experienced myself.

 

[Vann]

If you think you want even cleaner highs, you can add a tweeter attachment to the Lii Audio F15. Here I used a JBL compression driver. It's the same type like in my JBL Studio 590 floor standing speakers, which gives me 100% sonic satisfaction. The crossover was a bit tricky, I was helped by an old horn speaker expert I have known for decades from the triode festivals and who also has the appropriate measuring equipment.

View attachment 287405

Enjoying the Lii-15 sound?

 

[mhardy6647]

These are supposed to be good though narrow directivity http://www.dmaxaudio.com/en/sc5

Hmm... they look like Horrortones with aluminum cones. Not an encouraging first impression.

 

[Hexspa]

Hmm... they look like Horrortones with aluminum cones. Not an encouraging first impression.

Oh yes, I know well. Don’t worry, I would not steer you wrong.