Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

[audiopile]

BTW- based on pretty well done/large sample tests of listener's perception of various distortions (mostly mechanical issues like speed accuracy ,wow n flutter and rumble) -the NAB published a min. standard for transcription turntables. IIRR spec was published in the early 50's ? -at any rate -this would still be the base line for turntables -if a new turntable can't meet these min. NAB standards - it's probably appropriate to give it a solid rating of "junk".

 

[sergeauckland]

BTW- based on pretty well done/large sample tests of listener's perception of various distortions (mostly mechanical issues like speed accuracy ,wow n flutter and rumble) -the NAB published a min. standard for transcription turntables. IIRR spec was published in the early 50's ? -at any rate -this would still be the base line for turntables -if a new turntable can't meet these min. NAB standards - it's probably appropriate to give it a solid rating of "junk".

Have you by any chance a link to a copy of the NAB standard?

I have the UK IBA Code of Practice standard for disc reproducers as follows:-

Frequency response 40Hz - 12.5kHz +-2.5dB
Noise, peak weighted, -50dBm
Rumble according to DIN45544 -55dB
Wow & Flutter according to DIN45545 +-0.1%
Channel Balance 40Hz - 12.5kHz 1.5dB
Crosstalk according to DIN45543 -20dB

This was the specification that the UK's first Commercial Radios were required to adhere to, and were largely based on BBC practice.

S.

 

[MattHooper]

The only thing I haven't seen are audiophiles who just enjoy their records and cut the crap.

Might there be a teeny bit of selection bias in your assessment? ;-)

They are really the vegans of the audio world. It's never enough to just sit back and listen, the neverending urge to somehow find a way, some way to impose the superiority of their choice is probably what gives them a worse name than they should get.

........And it's always this smug need to firmly state that something about their way is just the right way.

A number of people in this forum, on this very thread, play vinyl. I haven't seen a single one claim or even imply their choice is "superior" or "the right way" to whatever someone else is listening to. In fact, most including me have been explicit about the fact vinyl isn't for everyone, to say the least, and that it's a personal thing.

But, as I said in another forum, if the medium is the thing that dictates you'll listen to an album from start to end, you're not fooling anyone.
Personal joy is still the strongest argument out there. And the most fair one.

Personal joy is generally the reason any of us are in this hobby, whether you are listening to digital or vinyl. If someone is choosing digital over vinyl, surely it's because it suits his own desires/goals and makes him happier.

 

[Angsty]

- sure, but not only vinyl is romantic, nostalgia is always a little bit romantic, CDs will be very vintage soon enough, now it's this last crusade with the "right" way to listen to music. And it's always this smug need to firmly state that something about their way is just the right way.

I now have "vintage" CD players and I smugly assert that CDs are better than 44.1K digital streaming because of the "lossy" Internet! Take that!

Oh, wait -- you want "proof" of superior playback quality?

Umm, ahh, well...

 

[audiopile]

My personal quality of "sound" check is very simply -how long do I want to listen to what's playing ? But I have a 55+ year curiosity / obsession with trying to figure out why it pleases me or not ? No matter how much you've spent -how much time and effort you've put into your system - if you aren't listening to it and getting enjoyment from that listening experience -that's a problem -the reverse is one of life's small blessings.
If you go to Richardhess.com/tape/history/NAB -he has permission to post the 1964 NAB standards.
Some of the highlights:
speed accuracy +/- .3%
.1% Wow n flutter
Rumble for stereo -35dB
Channel separation 26dB from 100-7500 hz
I would guess my collection includes literealy thousands of LP's that do not meet their standards for LP quality while quit possibly despite having owned a bunch of turntables over the years -likely all of those comfortably exceeded the NAB standards.

 

[scott wurcer]

The only thing I haven't seen are audiophiles who just enjoy their records and cut the crap.

They probably are not compelled to post on line. Killdozer and Duel are probably the best 2 made for TV sci-fi flicks of their era.

 

[Wes]

The only thing I haven't seen are audiophiles who just enjoy their records and cut the crap. They are really the vegans of the audio world. It's never enough to just sit back and listen, the neverending urge to somehow find a way, some way to impose the superiority of their choice is probably what gives them a worse name than they should get.

So as the evolution goes; it was about the superior sound- that one is all but worn down, so then it was bc records represent the recording as it was meant to be - also debunked, the recordings needed to be heavily manipulated to sound half decent on vinyl, than it was the romanticism - sure, but not only vinyl is romantic, nostalgia is always a little bit romantic, CDs will be very vintage soon enough, now it's this last crusade with the "right" way to listen to music. And it's always this smug need to firmly state that something about their way is just the right way. But, as I said in another forum, if the medium is the thing that dictates you'll listen to an album from start to end, you're not fooling anyone.

Personal joy is still the strongest argument out there. And the most fair one.

BTW, I own an 84' Technics, I like it, sometimes I listen to it and it makes me happy. Since Yugoslavia ended badly, some of the musical archive is neglected and some of the pre CD music you can't find properly digitalized even if it's rather new, from '70, '80. So there is still some practical use in owning a TT in my parts.

what would Anthony Bourdain say?

 

[killdozzer]

what would Anthony Bourdain say?

And just to add to the topic; I think TT is one device you can buy vintage or new. If it still operates as good as it can, why not? New ones are not all that superior. And another thing; new models are often with some drab materials... Having a TT made from a particle board that has the same quiality and appearence as a kitchen cupboard, it just makes me depressed. Sure some of them are cheap, but one would say rightly so.

 

[killdozzer]

They probably are not compelled to post on line. Killdozer and Duel are probably the best 2 made for TV sci-fi flicks of their era.

I wasn't thinking only of online conversing. In real life, wherever... People who'll just say, look, I like it. i don't think there's any reason to see my ways or my choices as better or as something I'd recommend noobs entering this world.

 

[BostonJack]

What is the ultimate middle finger, I wonder.

in person acoustic music?

 

[scott wurcer]

in person acoustic music?

Your post jolted my memory back to the Boston Camerata playing live at the annual Peasant Stock Christmas diner, a middle age middle finger to posh dining at the same time. Not sure if this was before your time.

 

[MattHooper]

They probably are not compelled to post on line. Killdozer and Duel are probably the best 2 made for TV sci-fi flicks of their era.

Duel for sure!

Killdozer?

Well...

I've been on a "movie of the week" (mostly 70's) binge and actually just watched Killdozer again (it was a favorite MOW when I was a kid).
It's still cheesy fun, but doesn't remotely hold a candle to Duel in terms of quality and craft.

Best made-for-tv movie's of all time are Duel and The Night Stalker.

IMO. I find both endlessly re-watchable.

 

[scott wurcer]

Best made-for-tv movie's of all time are Duel and The Night Stalker.

IMO. I find both endlessly re-watchable.

What a hilarious coincidence I watched The Night Stalker two nights ago. There's also Gargoyles.

 

[killdozzer]

@MattHooper @scott wurcer Since you both like the movie, have you read short stories by Theodore Sturgeon? (one of which is Killdozzer) My favorite childhood writer.

 

[MattHooper]

@MattHooper @scott wurcer Since you both like the movie, have you read short stories by Theodore Sturgeon? (one of which is Killdozzer) My favorite childhood writer.

Actually now that you mention it...YES I did read killdozer! I'd forgotten. Back when I was young, though.

 

[scott wurcer]

@MattHooper @scott wurcer Since you both like the movie, have you read short stories by Theodore Sturgeon? (one of which is Killdozzer) My favorite childhood writer.

Yes I read many short story compilations with lots of good authors like Alfred Bester, etc. Bradbury was my favorite at the time.

 

[Angsty]

When I first measured this effect myself I went to considerable trouble to move my turntable and electronics out of the listening room into my adjacent study. It was a pain putting an LP on then going into a different room but certainly more accurate but, to my surprise, I didn't like the sound as much. I had had many years of listening to records with this extra bass reverb added by my system it sounded a bit thin without it.
I am quite sure I, and a lot of others, enjoy LPs because of this sort of euphonic addition - reverb almost always sounds nice.

I've been thinking about @Frank Dernie 's comments about reverb and turntables a lot this weekend. Might this reverb be the reason why some audiophiles prefer the "sound of vinyl" versus digital sources? I got to thinking about this from a different angle when re-reading an article by Herb Reichert in Stereophile about the R2R Denafrips DACs' handling of reverb in recordings.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I don't know about others here, but the sound of the background between music tracks (not the ticks and pops which should be sparse in good vinyl) and its 'phasey' quality adds a bit to the 'vinyl sound' to me at least. Its kind of like added room ambience for lack of a better description. I'm sure this sound adds to the total sound of music tracks too, especially during very quiet passages.

It it 'accurate'? Hell no! But I enjoy it.

 

[MattHooper]

https://www.askmen.com/deals/tech_deals/prime-day-deal-spotlight-vinyl-records.html

"Vinyl records were in jeopardy of going the way of the dial telephone, the fax machine, and the VHS, until music lovers across the world pointed out an inconvenient truth for CD and MP3 enthusiasts: the vinyls just plain sound better. The compression needed to fit all that great sound onto a single CD compromises quality, and the same dilemma was posed by early MP3 downloads, which had to work around the limitations of Internet speeds."

Ugh! That's an excerpt from yet another article on vinyl, spreading the typical misinformation about vinyl and digital technology and sound quality.
Being a fan of vinyl this stuff drives me nuts, and I can see why people who have digital set ups, and who value fidelity/accuracy and just plain "facts" can be put off by this vinyl phenomenon, given how much misinformation attends the hype.

There are some articles that acknowledge the technical disadvantages and quirky sonic results for vinyl, but many also post crap like the above.

For me as an audiophile, the only silver lining I see in the fact that most vinyl articles talk about the sound, is simply that "sound quality" is being made a "thing" again to some degree. Even when I read of a newbie who has just put together a turntable/amp/speaker system to spin his/her new vinyl, and they rave about the sound quality, they may certainly be mixing fact and fantasy, or misunderstanding why they think the vinyl is "better," but it's nice to see people actually listening for distinctions in sound quality and caring about it, nonetheless.

Some people are probably putting together their first audio system, moving on from listening via a laptop or earbuds, due to getting in to vinyl.

I'm not a headphone guy, but it seems to me the explosion of options in the headphone market, with a lot of serious attempts at raising sound quality in that market, also seem to have either grown, or grown from, some increasing desire for sound quality.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

..........the vinyls just plain sound better.

Can the world agree to please stop calling them 'vinyls'? If everything 'retro' is supposed to be so hot shit, isn't the original name LPs or records good enough too? Back in the day, I visited record stores.

/RANT