Why the fuss with subwoofer specs and brands?

[jsilvela]

What's faithful to you may not be the same for someone else especially among different music genres. Some people like near field. Some people are fine with a lack of sub bass. Myself I can't stand either. After experiencing systems with a large sweet spot and easilly able to handle high spl in the lower octaves anything less is a compromise to me.

Basically if I put on SRV and the system can not sound like a small club down in Austin it's not faithful to me as that is what I want.

Totally. "Faithful" is not an absolute term.
The tangent we were going on about is that at some point in this thread, someone had said a sub is optional for music, but a must for movies. Very far from trying to pontificate, just learning—the sub I bought last month is my first.

I still have trouble with acronyms at ASR. Had to look up SRV

 

[Sancus]

But the industry assumed consumers would balk at that missing .1. So they pointlessly add an LFE channel to surround music releases, and populate it unnecessarily with bass.

There are 5.0 releases but they tend to be handled improperly by playback software so they're pretty much a bad idea. Sticking to the standard format guarantees compatibility even if there's nothing in the LFE channel.

Whether or not it's needed is sort of irrelevant, but I think it can be useful on rare type of recordings that do have loud enough bass to justify needing the extra headroom. Some organ recordings would definitely benefit from that, for example.

 

[jsilvela]

You put it in your chair/seat to get close

ps with the larger subs this gets difficult

Is this the famous "ground lift" I keep hearing about?

 

[bodhi]

Totally. "Faithful" is not an absolute term.
The tangent we were going on about is that at some point in this thread, someone had said a sub is optional for music, but a must for movies. Very far from trying to pontificate, just learning—the sub I bought last month is my first.

You don't need sub for movies either. I think about 95% of people watching movies and listening music are doing just great with TV speakers and/or some bluetooth box.

But if we drop the outliers such as silent movies, triangle concertos and the upcoming Hollywood smash hit "Earthquake at organ recital IV" we might have some kind of idea of what is needed to reproduce enough of the source material. And then we might arrive at conclusion that there is usually more lower frequencies in movies.

 

[Vacceo]

LOL would love to demo one....but in home and am not likely to travel to anywhere that has one (let alone properly setup). Don't want to spend that much on a sub, tho, altho these look to be quite excellent.

The best subwoofer I have ever experienced, cinema aside, is a JL Gotham. Perlisten is a manufacturer that I really want to experience as their spinoramas and dispersion patterns resamble something I already like (coaxials). For the subwoofers, well, they dig deep and loud so...

 

[jsilvela]

... the upcoming Hollywood smash hit "Earthquake at organ recital IV"

They're on IV already?? Awesome.
Man, I loved pt II, when I played it at home, my upstairs neighbor had a heart attack.

 

[ryanosaur]

It absolutely is frequency dependent in the real world. High frequencies are more directional while low frequencies are reinforced more strongly by front and side walls especially. High frequencies are also more easily absorbed.

So boundary reinforcement does impact bass the most.

Again, I'm not an expert here...

But Boundary Gain will boost any soundwave. Take a 15" coaxial or a 3" full range driver.
I get your point that as the wavelength decreases it would be possible to not see as much reinforcement, BUT...
You get more reinforcement as you narrow the reinforcement angle, right? From open space (4 pi or no boundary) to half space (2 pi or infinite baffle) to quarter space (the junction of two surfaces (i.e. wall/wall or wall/floor)) and eighth space (the junction of 3 surfaces (i.e. wall/wall/floor)...
And the ultimate boundary reinforcement becomes horn loading.

And in this instance of a smaller acoustic angle that eighth space, even the higher frequencies (shorter wavelengths) benefit from that gain.

This is different than the acoustics behind cabin gain, as I understand it, regardless of how remedial that understanding is.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Room gain will increase low-end extension significantly, typically 6-9dB per octave (irrespective of corner placement). So 6dB added bass at 20hz is not unusual in what accounts to normal sized rooms here in Europe at least. The smaller the room the more gain (and the higher up in frequency it starts). So a sub that starts to roll-off at 25-30hz may actually be perfectly flat to well below 20hz in-room. We (and I assume other subwoofer manufacturers) model the anechoic frequency response to take advantage of this.

A quick google found this SVS article for those interested in the details: https://www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoofer-setup-and-tuning/what-is-subwoofer-room-gain

 

[krabapple]

There are 5.0 releases but they tend to be handled improperly by playback software so they're pretty much a bad idea.

This has not been my experience. 4.0 releases -- some exiisted, on DVDA -- on the other hand, seemed to be hit or miss on 'recent' (as in the last decade or so) AVRs. My older AVRs had no problem with them.

OTOH, ripped 4.0 or 5.0 *file* playback, using actual software (.e.g, foobar2k), has not been problematic for me, using a WASAPI output driver and HDMI out to AVR. Works like a charm.

Sticking to the standard format guarantees compatibility even if there's nothing in the LFE channel.

True, but I'm not talking about releases with an empty LFE channel. It's the idea that there needs to be *content* in the LFE channel of music releases.

Whether or not it's needed is sort of irrelevant, but I think it can be useful on rare type of recordings that do have loud enough bass to justify needing the extra headroom. Some organ recordings would definitely benefit from that, for example.

It's not irrelevant if LFE is 'doubling' bass that's already present in main channels. It is in any case rarely needed.

 

[krabapple]

More or less...
When you run Audyssey it will want to do the full protocol, which I think you can stop after one full set of sweeps.
And of course, you are limited to how many discreet Sub Outs you have, as anything more would require REW and an external hub like mDSP2x4.

Again... it's crude.
But functional.


As far as what I was working with, my front corners were inaccessible, but also super boomy and muddy. The only spot on my back wall that could take a sub was a null. I didn't check IN the closet. The side walls were super clean for several feet and so I had a good range of placement opportunities. I think I moved one of them a few inches after initial setup.

Cool. What track(s) do you play during your bass crawl?

 

[Chrispy]

Room gain will increase low-end extension significantly, typically 6-9dB per octave (irrespective of corner placement). So 6dB added bass at 20hz is not unusual in what accounts to normal sized rooms here in Europe at least. The smaller the room the more gain (and the higher up in frequency it starts). So a sub that starts to roll-off at 25-30hz may actually be perfectly flat to well below 20hz in-room. We (and I assume other subwoofer manufacturers) model the anechoic frequency response to take advantage of this.

A quick google found this SVS article for those interested in the details: https://www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoofer-setup-and-tuning/what-is-subwoofer-room-gain

Yes, but what I was trying to say earlier is the sub does what it does....the room can enhance it or not (but not actually increase extension capabilities of the sub). In my small bedroom yes, I get a bit of cabin gain help, but in my big room hardly any help. I'd still rather have a sub capable rather than not of lower extension, then deal with room and eq as a separate issue....

 

[ryanosaur]

Cool. What track(s) do you play during your bass crawl?

Personally, I used the Gorillaz Dub album.
It’s trite, but Get lucky by Daft Punk is supposed to be a good one for the crawl.
You want something with a clean and persistent baseline to it, and ideally something you know well (like with any other audition).
I chose what I did because I wanted to focus on some content that pushed a little lower than standard Bass Guitar.

Other recommendations that didn’t work well for me was Pink Noise and rhythmic test tones.

 

[Andysu]

This has not been my experience. 4.0 releases -- some exiisted, on DVDA -- on the other hand, seemed to be hit or miss on 'recent' (as in the last decade or so) AVRs. My older AVRs had no problem with them.

OTOH, ripped 4.0 or 5.0 *file* playback, using actual software (.e.g, foobar2k), has not been problematic for me, using a WASAPI output driver and HDMI out to AVR. Works like a charm.



True, but I'm not talking about releases with an empty LFE channel. It's the idea that there needs to be *content* in the LFE channel of music releases.



It's not irrelevant if LFE is 'doubling' bass that's already present in main channels. It is in any case rarely needed.

i like relaxing in bed , it relaxes myself . so now i got get out of bed , yet again and do some more LFE.1 listening . thorough listening that is . takes 30mins turn on the THX cinema , run sound check test that its all up and running . 30mis . not the average home cinema switch it on in few seconds .

i find that comment LFE.1 in the main channels and not the Lc Rc then again hardly many here have Lc Rc channels as that would be the common placement for the for 70mm format 42 43 . only Lc Rc isn't used for Lc Rc those tracks 2 and 4 for format 43 split surrounds and baby boom sw ( LFE.1 today ) , then again not many here can recreate star wars with sub bass on Lc Rc channels , except me of course .

 

[Andysu]

Cool. What track(s) do you play during your bass crawl?

i nominate you for sub bass youtube video crawl .
i not seen a single person doing this so called crawl . i doubt many would even for a laugh . i do it . i do it like now today , video coming soon . .

 

[Vacceo]

Personally, I used the Gorillaz Dub album.
It’s trite, but Get lucky by Daft Punk is supposed to be a good one for the crawl.
You want something with a clean and persistent baseline to it, and ideally something you know well (like with any other audition).
I chose what I did because I wanted to focus on some content that pushed a little lower than standard Bass Guitar.

Other recommendations that didn’t work well for me was Pink Noise and rhythmic test tones.

I have used Breathe from The Prodigy exactly for the reasons you have stated.

Another option is Laibach's remix of Morbid Angel's Sworn to Black.

 

[Willem]

Subwoofer corner placement will essentially add output at all the subwoofer's operating frequencies.

And by implication, also increase the extension, because it lifts the lowest frequencies to a relevant level. This will, of course, apply more to sealed subs with their shallower downward slope than to ported subs. My own not very powerful sealed 2x8 inch B&W PV1d produces serious level to some 13 Hz when located in the corner, and in that same corner my even smaller sealed 8 inch Kef Kube8b manages more or less flat output down to 25 Hz.

 

[Andysu]

And by implication, also increase the extension, because it lifts the lowest frequencies to a relevant level. This will, of course, apply more to sealed subs with their shallower downward slope than to ported subs. My own not very powerful sealed 2x8 inch B&W PV1d produces serious level to some 13 Hz when located in the corner, and in that same corner my even smaller sealed 8 inch Kef Kube8b manages more or less flat output down to 25 Hz.

have you fully checked the b-chain on your system with REW and i mean fully from a chain the player end to the b-chain

 

[Willem]

?

 

[Andysu]

?

i gather you not fully checked your b-chain then , okay

 

[jsilvela]

i gather you not fully checked your b-chain then , okay

I have to say I also did not get what you mean by "b-chain". What is it?