Wiim Mini DAC vs external

[Rubberducky]

I have some confusion about information I find on this site. On one side, in the Wiim Mini review the internal DAC is seen as not good (84dB). But on the other hand others mention that noise at -84dB cannot be heard.

Is there a real-world difference between a 140dB DAC and the Wiim DAC? Or do they just measure differently?

 

[Svensson]

They do measure differently and whether or not you can hear the difference may depend upon the rest of your equipment. I suspect that many of us would not very easily hear a difference. If you buy from Amazon to listen to the options, you have chance to return one of the devices. Be careful and A - B listen for different sessions over 2-3 days.

 

[Rubberducky]

They do measure differently and whether or not you can hear the difference may depend upon the rest of your equipment. I suspect that many of us would not very easily hear a difference. If you buy from Amazon to listen to the options, you have chance to return one of the devices. Be careful and A - B listen for different sessions over 2-3 days.

So if I understand it correctly -84dB noise would be maybe be audible, depending on setup, -140dB would certainly be not?

When blind A/B listening, what would you listen for? Just "a difference"?

 

[Rja4000]

So if I understand it correctly -84dB noise would be maybe be audible, depending on setup, -140dB would certainly be not?

When blind A/B listening, what would you listen for? Just "a difference"?

Actually, and similar to a lot of other domains, there is a performance threshold above which you may say, without much risk of being wrong, that a device is truely transparent.

It's not one single value, of course, but all of the measurements we see here, when all are good.

As Amir says, this SINAD figure, when high enough, is almost always a good predictor that everything will be fine.

To reach 110dB or over SINAD is not happening randomly. It requires excellent engineering and production. There is therefore little reason something has been left over.

Given it's quite easy today to find a transparent DAC for a reasonable price, there is little reason to play with the limits and target below excellence.
Unless you already own the device, of course, or if you need a special functionality that you couldn't find or afford elsewhere (which may be the case with your example).

On top of it, favoring good measuring devices is voting with your wallet, and is pushing industrial actors to produce better quality.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

Personal preference is the key. Not just soundwise. I love euqipment at or close to state of the art and am willing to pay for this. No reason to do so if you don't care. Not soundwise. Even less so if you lost part of your hearing ability due to age. Having said that I really enjoy fancy stuff.

 

[Greenman]

I have some confusion about information I find on this site. On one side, in the Wiim Mini review the internal DAC is seen as not good (84dB). But on the other hand others mention that noise at -84dB cannot be heard.

Is there a real-world difference between a 140dB DAC and the Wiim DAC? Or do they just measure differently?

i bought a WiiM mini a few months ago as a matter of proof of concept in my system (is wifi signal good enough to stream hi res in specific location etc). It proved the concept but it was not a sound i could live with vs my CD player and turntable. I then bought a good reviewing cheap dac (s.m.s.L Su1) to try, much better but still not something I could live with long term. i then bought a different dac to try and I am happy with this, it compares (often favourably) to my other sources.

So the answer is probably..it depends. is it to drive a fully fledged hi fi playing hi res audio? Maybe not. If it’s to drive a desktop system via lossy codecs then maybe, depends how fussy you are. Try it and see.

 

[Svensson]

So if I understand it correctly -84dB noise would be maybe be audible, depending on setup, -140dB would certainly be not?

When blind A/B listening, what would you listen for? Just "a difference"?

I may be repeating or rephrasing the above comments in saying that your own system, your room and your ears will show if this DAC is superior or not. If you aren't currently using a DAC then there should be an improvement anyway. How much improvement you get will depend upon how much your system is source / DAC limited. CD resolution, or higher is more likely to reward your ears than would MP3 tracks

 

[Rja4000]

If you aren't currently using a DAC

Not sure what you mean by this.
You need a DAC anyway to listen to digital audio.

 

[Rja4000]

your room and your ears will show if this DAC is superior or not.

In fact, probably not.

That's very difficult to differentiate DACs by listening, if even ever possible.

The measurements show us that the SINAD is driven down by distortion, noise remains quite good. Noise is the easiest to hear, so chances are even lower that the OP would be able to identify differences.

I mean differences other than the ones his brain may wrongly highlight -a well known and described phenomenon everybody is subject to.

 

[Rja4000]

others mention that noise at -84dB cannot be heard.

Is there a real-world difference between a 140dB DAC and the Wiim DAC? Or do they just measure differently?

Noise at -84dB may be heard.
Harmonic distortion probably not.
Even the very best transducers produce more or similar level of distortion, anyway.

Note that IMD is probably more audible, since you don't have the masking effect benefit like you have when distortion products are exact harmonics of the fundamental.

About noise, it's also greatly depending how you'll use the device:
If you change the volume ahead of the DAC output, you'll lower the SNR accordingly:
Decrease level by 20dB, and you'd only keep 64dB, if full scale SNR was 84dB.
And this is absolutely audible.

Fortunately, the SNR of the Wiim's DAC is quite good, so you won't hear noise.

 

[BDWoody]

I may be repeating or rephrasing the above comments in saying that your own system, your room and your ears will show if this DAC is superior or not.

Too often, people include their eyes as well.

My suggestion is to try with some basic controls.

 

[Svensson]

We both agree for those comments. My thinking was to tease out and understand OPs current situation. Where are they on their journey and what is their kit.

I have friends who listen to digital music using the audio out from their PC, or the HP out. Some use BT direct from their digital device.

For many with equipment that is high SINAD / low distortion, well engineered, the room they may not have measurements capability.

Noise at -84dB may be heard.
Harmonic distortion probably not.
Even the very best transducers produce more or similar level of distortion, anyway.

Note that IMD is more audible, since you don't have the masking effect benefit like you have when distortion products are exact harmonics of the fundamental.

About noise, it's also greatly depending how you'll use the device:
If you change the volume ahead of the DAC output, you'll lower the SNR accordingly:
Decrease level by 20dB, and you'd only keep 64dB, if full scale SNR was 84dB.
And this is absolutely audible.

Fortunately, the SNR of the Wiim's DAC is quite good, so you won't hear noise.

 

[Rubberducky]

We both agree for those comments. My thinking was to tease out and understand OPs current situation. Where are they on their journey and what is their kit.

I have friends who listen to digital music using the audio out from their PC, or the HP out. Some use BT direct from their digital device.

For many with equipment that is high SINAD / low distortion, well engineered, the room they may not have measurements capability.

My current situation is that I am used to a NAD C352 amplifier powering Dynaudio 160 speakers. My Denon x3700h is used as preamp/HDMI DAC / Spotify connect device. The sound there is good. For a second room I have Q Acoustics 3030i speakers. 99% will be Spotify Connect, maybe some local FlACs. I'm looking to add a small amplifier (Fosi V3 maybe) and a Wiim Mini as streamer. The speakers will probably not be positioned perfectly, and most "critical" listening will be done on the Dynaudios. But I like it when music sounds good, but don't want to buy into snake oil that doesn't add real value. So I was thinking on whether adding an external DAC inbetween the streamer and the amp is worth it. But it seems like for <100eur I can get an SMSL SU-1 that measures very well. Just not sure if I'll hear the difference. I can always try an A/B test.

 

[Greenman]

. So I was thinking on whether adding an external DAC inbetween the streamer and the amp is worth it. But it seems like for <100eur I can get an SMSL SU-1 that measures very well. Just not sure if I'll hear the difference. I can always try an A/B test.

as I state above, I heard a distinct improvement with su1. Are you in the UK? I’ll sell you my su1 (used for a week or so) for £50 if you fancy?.

either way for the cost involved it’s easy to suck it and see.