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Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

Rate this AVR

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 10 3.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 72 21.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 178 54.1%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 69 21.0%

  • Total voters
    329

peng

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MTBF = could be 5 seconds or 5 years. Lower end of scale is very possible when buying refurbished Denon AVR. Most Denon failures I have seen reported by users on ASR came with the lure of lower refurb pricing. A Refurb discount should be considered a risk premium. :facepalm::p:D
Just wait for the EPDR he might be ready to add, but perhaps (hopefully) not, as the F206's dip to 3.3 ohms at just about -10 degrees and 40 Hz, assuming he interprets that reasonably right haha.
 
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peng

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I’ll let you all know what the service centre say.

If they don't want to tell you the suspected cause(s), please ask to speak to a supervisor, probably better to use phone support than email as it may be easier for them to talk than to put it in writing. Thanks in advance...
 

CapMan

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Just wait for the EPDR he might be ready to add, but perhaps (hopefully) not, as the F206's dip to 3.3 ohms at just about -10 degrees and 40 Hz, assuming he interprets that reasonably right haha.
Mine are rolled off to subs well before that impedence dip :)
 

Steve Dallas

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My X4800 is poorly - no sound from any speaker using any source, test tone doesn’t work, output channel on display is blank. Factory reset didn’t change anything . Denon think an amp may have gone :(

It’s gone for repair today.
Oh dear. That sounds like what happened to my [new] 4700 right at year 3. I had it repaired, and they said they had to replace a power supply board and an amp board. By the time I received it back, I had purchased a [new] 4800, so I sold it instead of placing it back in service. I hope the 4800 doesn't eventually develop the same problem.
 

CapMan

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Oh dear. That sounds like what happened to my [new] 4700 right at year 3. I had it repaired, and they said they had to replace a power supply board and an amp board. By the time I received it back, I had purchased a [new] 4800, so I sold it instead of placing it back in service. I hope the 4800 doesn't eventually develop the same problem.
Good to know - I’ll report back.
 

peng

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Mine are rolled off to subs well before that impedence dip :)

I know the specs say 8 ohms nominal, but looking at the ASR measurements, it looks more like 4, may be 5.5 ohms nominal at the most.
Still, using single point impedance and amp "power" it not very useful unless one wants to take the most conservative approach and size their power amps based on say 2X the speaker manufacturer's maximum power handling, or recommending amp power numbers. In that case, one can pair the F206 with a 400 W into 8 ohms power amp and call it a day.

Otherwise, we can take a look of a more likely real world application such as the following example I would like to use:

For a good part of the audio band, the F206 impedance appears to reach below 6 ohms, but let's say we want to be on the safe side, and choose 4.5 ohms and do some calculations based on that.

Sensitivity: 88 dB, assume that's for 2.83 V at 1 meter (Revel is not explicit on that but we can agree that is a realistic assumption based on common practice on sensitivity specs).

Listening distance, let's assume 4 meters, that's about 13 ft, and the drop in SPL without room gain is -12 dB.

Now assume the worst case in SPL, hopefully worst case is reference level, so 105 dB peak.

88-12 = 76 dB would be achieved at 4 meters, without room gain and that is at 2.83 V.

To bring it up to 105 dB, by calculations based on 4.5 ohms, the "power" required would be about 1400 W, the current draw would be about 18 A.

Clearly the AVR is not going to make it, not even close. Now if the required SPL is 6 dB below reference, or 99 dB, still very loud I would say, then the power required will drop to 144 W, current would be 5.66 A, for two channel driven simultaneously, double the numbers. That's doable by the AVR, but I doubt it would last long if used under that condition regularly.

So I think the key for trouble free operation of the AVR, with the Revel F206 towers and the matching center, would be to do the following:

- Don't listen to more than 10 dB below reference, master volume at below -15 would seem safe.
- Use a quiet fan to blow from the rear, full time.
- Set crossover at 80 Hz, not lower.

Or, use an external 2 or 3 (better) ext. amp rated at least 200 W 8 ohms, 350 W 4 ohms, and then it will be safe to push SPL to 6 dB below reference.
Or, shorter the distance to say 3 meters, then the AVR can survive normally for listening to 10 dB below reference, so volume up to -10 should be okay.

Now, on the 4 ohm setting:

We already know the 4 ohm setting will limit the amp's output voltage, we don't know for sure how much it drops. If we assume the rated power output would drop by half, then we know leaving the setting for 8 ohms, but lower your maximum volume by 3 dB would have the same results.

Above calculations are very much on the conservative side, as it assumes no room gain at all, and impedance 4.5 ohms instead of Revel's official specs of 8 ohms nominal.

In reality, the load wouldn't be as punishing, though keep in mind the calculations mainly based on one and two channel driven. When watching movies in 5.2, depending on the contents, you can push the AVR to uncomfortable too.

Again, an ext. fan would help a lot.

One thing for sure, those who listen loud, like to near ref level from more than 3 meters should almost always use ext. amps unless their speakers have relatively high sensitivity, such as above 93 dB/2.83 V/m



index.php
 

pogo

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Mine are rolled off to subs well before that impedence dip
Your speakers also drop to 4.3ohms above 100Hz (source: hifi & records). I'll leave the phase out of this and I haven't looked at the center, ... either. People always underestimate the power requirements that can arise here if room correction is also involved. And when DLART arrives soon, I expect an increase in failures, which will mostly occur in the PSU and amplifier stages.
 

pogo

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Again, an ext. fan would help a lot.
That is a misconception!
Pulses can cause you to enter prohibited component areas and pre-damage components. An earlier failure is therefore inevitable.
 

peng

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It is important that people understands that "duration" matters a lot, not just the magnitude. Not disagreeing on your point on "pulses....", but misconception, don't be silly! That applies to current, power, heat etc. Example a 15 A circuit would not trip even when current exceeds 10X that during a motor start up, but it would trip even at as low as 18 A, if the condition last long enough.

Likewise, one can touch an open flame (please don't do it) for a few microseconds without getting hurt, but will get hurt touching 75 deg C if you touch it long enough.

There is no issue with that 4.3 ohms dip at around 110 Hz until a person enjoys listening a 110 Hz tone all day long lol.... Wanted to ignore it but found it too funny to resist.
 

peng

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Really? What is "That" referred to, I never suggested your point about "Pulses can cause.......", in fact I would agree with that, but please read people post and try to understand it before responding.

By the way, I hate to ask, but very curious about your technical background. I don't want to put you on my ignore list because everyone makes some great points occasionally, and went not, it could be funny, or at least interesting.:) You are welcome to me on yours though, seriously, just a friendly suggestion.
 

peng

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Again, a link that is irrelevant, sure the info is good and valid but has nothing to do with my, or others point about how and why ext. fan may help. Different solutions to different potential issues, anyone should understand that one does not preclude the others.

You wonder why I was curious about your technical background, I think you must know..., and I suspect others do too.
 

pogo

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And that is Denon's point of view: Link
The impedance also changes with a pulse or higher volume!
 

CapMan

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Thanks for the detailed calcs - really appreciate this .

I think it’s likely these are quite conservative Based on my real world use.

Listening distance is under 3m, speakers are close to front wall so there will be some room gain. I would normally listen to music at 70-75dB at the MLP.

That said, Dirac will have added some mid bass boosts which could add some additional demand for power !
 
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Sal1950

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Everyone always wants an answer to the question of why something dies. Whether HiFi, cars or people,
they all come to an end at some point. Sometimes lasting a long time, some not so much. :(
The best thing you can do with HiFi gear is to keep it cool. I don't use the amps in my 4700 at all, everything
external powered, but still I put a fan on it so it runs icy cool, cheap insurance.
Now none of that would have helped when I got hit by lightning a couple years back and lost my
Marantz AV7703 pre-pro, computer, printer, more.
It's all a crap-shoot, maybe Church on Sundays will help, maybe not. LOL
IMG_0001_v1.JPG
 

peng

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Thanks for the detailed calcs - really appreciate this .

I think it’s likely these are quite conservative Based on my real world use.

Listening distance is under 3m, speakers are close to front wall so there will be some room gain. I would normally listen to music at 70-75dB at the MLP.

That said, Dirac will have added some mid bass boosts which could add some additional demand for power !

If Dirac boosted a few dB in the "right", i.e. bad places it could increase the risk. Anyway, I really hope Denon will tell you what failed, as it would tell us a lot more than we know now and take appropriate preventive action. Otherwise, as I suggested earlier, grab a 3 channel power amp rated appropriately then you don't have to do any more calculations or second guessing anything else.
 

CapMan

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Everyone always wants an answer to the question of why something dies. Whether HiFi, cars or people,
they all come to an end at some point. Sometimes lasting a long time, some not so much. :(
The best thing you can do with HiFi gear is to keep it cool. I don't use the amps in my 4700 at all, everything
external powered, but still I put a fan on it so it runs icy cool, cheap insurance.
Now none of that would have helped when I got hit by lightning a couple years back and lost my
Marantz AV7703 pre-pro, computer, printer, more.
It's all a crap-shoot, maybe Church on Sundays will help, maybe not. LOL
View attachment 366878
Aha - the famous hover-amp :D

Good advice though :)

How do you power the fan -
 
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pogo

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Dirac will have added some mid bass boosts which could add some additional demand for power !
If assuming 10dB (75+10=85 for MLP 75dB), you should be around here, whereby the impedance change during impulses has not yet been taken into account:

Screenshot_20240430-175843_Chrome.jpg
 

rynberg

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Listening distance, let's assume 4 meters, that's about 13 ft, and the drop in SPL without room gain is -12 dB.

Now assume the worst case in SPL, hopefully worst case is reference level, so 105 dB peak.

88-12 = 76 dB would be achieved at 4 meters, without room gain and that is at 2.83 V.

To bring it up to 105 dB, by calculations based on 4.5 ohms, the "power" required would be about 1400 W, the current draw would be about 18 A.

Clearly the AVR is not going to make it, not even close. Now if the required SPL is 6 dB below reference, or 99 dB, still very loud I would say, then the power required will drop to 144 W, current would be 5.66 A, for two channel driven simultaneously, double the numbers. That's doable by the AVR, but I doubt it would last long if used under that condition regularly.

So I think the key for trouble free operation of the AVR, with the Revel F206 towers and the matching center, would be to do the following:

- Don't listen to more than 10 dB below reference, master volume at below -15 would seem safe.
- Use a quiet fan to blow from the rear, full time.
- Set crossover at 80 Hz, not lower.

Or, use an external 2 or 3 (better) ext. amp rated at least 200 W 8 ohms, 350 W 4 ohms, and then it will be safe to push SPL to 6 dB below reference.
Or, shorter the distance to say 3 meters, then the AVR can survive normally for listening to 10 dB below reference, so volume up to -10 should be okay.
Let's make this more realistic:

1. If someone really is listening at 4m and trying to hit reference, they should be looking at a different speaker altogether. I think using 3m distance is much more realistic for 90%+ of listening environments.
2. Real drop-off from a speaker at these distances in a room is more like 3-4.5dB/doubling, not 6dB. So reduction at LP is really only 5-7 dB, not 12 dB.
3. Reference is meant to be an average of 85 dB, with peaks of up to 105 dB (how many soundtracks actually hit that average and use the full dynamic range, I don't know but I suspect it's a small percentage).
4. Using those parameters and the rest of your calculation, the required power would only be about 4W for average levels and up to 400W for peaks (bursts, not sustained).

So while it's true I wouldn't expect a receiver to fully cope with a maxed out track at reference, it should be fine at only a few dB below reference. Any competent external amplifier worth purchasing should be able to meet that 400W burst without an issue.

Someone trying to comfortably hit reference in a larger space with larger distances to the LP should be looking at different speakers and serious amplification anyway.
 

peng

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Let's make this more realistic:

1. If someone really is listening at 4m and trying to hit reference, they should be looking at a different speaker altogether. I think using 3m distance is much more realistic for 90%+ of listening environments.
2. Real drop-off from a speaker at these distances in a room is more like 3-4.5dB/doubling, not 6dB. So reduction at LP is really only 5-7 dB, not 12 dB.
3. Reference is meant to be an average of 85 dB, with peaks of up to 105 dB (how many soundtracks actually hit that average and use the full dynamic range, I don't know but I suspect it's a small percentage).
4. Using those parameters and the rest of your calculation, the required power would only be about 4W for average levels and up to 400W for peaks (bursts, not sustained).

So while it's true I wouldn't expect a receiver to fully cope with a maxed out track at reference, it should be fine at only a few dB below reference. Any competent external amplifier worth purchasing should be able to meet that 400W burst without an issue.

Someone trying to comfortably hit reference in a larger space with larger distances to the LP should be looking at different speakers and serious amplification anyway.

Agreed, as I said, I intentionally used an example that would be very much on the conservative side, almost like worse scenarios.

I have quite a few real power amps, but I am happy with my 18 lbs soaked and wet AVR as well. It all depends on the application.
 
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