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Upsampling 16/44.1 collection a good idea?

antcollinet

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Please correct me if I am wrong.
No, not incorrect. The error is quantisation noise.

It is just a best effort reconstruction.
It is the original signal with (normally dithered) quantisation noise added.

Please do correct me if I am wrong as I am still learning
No idea how the E30 is set up in these cases, but those are the outputs of a DAC with either the reconstruction filter turned off - or a badly deficient filter selected. It is the reconstruction filter that removes frequencies above Nyquist, and Hence reconstructs the signal. Obv why it is called a reconstruction filter.

As you can see from the video even the old cheap audio interface he is using generates a perfect sine wave even at 20KHz.


EDIT - just read the article you linked. Selected filter was the “super slow rolloff filter. So yes, defective.
 
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antcollinet

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Could you share your view why a DAC provide multiple filter settings instead of a single perfect reconstruction filter for the audio signal reconstruction?
Because people love to play. They can sell it.
 

antcollinet

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Why they provide a defective filter? For having fun with users? Or users want to have fun with defective filter?
It’s a mystery isn’t it? I guess it allows people to hear what a “stairstep“ waveform sounds like.
 

MaxwellsEq

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Why they provide a defective filter? For having fun with users? Or users want to have fun with defective filter?
It's history. The first CD players had no adjustments. Expensive niche CD players were produced with different filters to satisfy audiophiles used to endless tweaking of their LP12s. Then reconstruction filters moved into the mathematical / digital space and were much better, but the options of stupid choice remains. These days the debate is about ringing and phase, but everyone knows that steep filters with high rejection above fs/2 are essential.
 

antcollinet

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Some people claim that these NOS would make a more "analog" like music. So, some people may want to use the NOS filter to play their music.
Ha!

Audiophiles - Digital is crap because “stairsteps” (which don’t exist if conversion is done properly)

Also Audiophiles - NOS Dacs (which create stairsteps) are great - they sound “analog”

There aren’t enough :rolleyes:
 

antcollinet

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Do you think "stairsteps" waveform would sound weird?

You can try it yourself if you happen to have a DAC that support "NOS".

You may be surprised with what you hear.
I don’t have one. But I’m not particularly interested. I beleive it will be audible. But it doesn’t matter. It is imperfect reproduction, when audibly perfect is routinely and inexpensively available.
 

antcollinet

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IMO, I believe that no matter what we pick, NOS, non-NOS, DSD, Hi-Res, Red Book... all these are imperfect reproduction.

They all sound good (and imperfect in their own way). Just pick the one you like and have fun :)
I disagree. Perfection is achieved when the result is audibly indistinguishable from what was recorded. This is routinely and inexpensivle availabe.

Redbook achieves this for pretty much all real world listening conditions. Add a couple of bits to that and you are universally done.
 

Tell

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Cool, thanks for the detailed explanation. It would help a lot in our discussion.

As I said earlier, video is different from audio. Let's focus on the last picture (i.e. the smooth and analog one you mentioned). It is more close to our audio's application.

In the smoothing process, the DAC is doing it for you.

With external upsampling, your upsampling software is helping the DAC to do the smoothing.

Agree?

If you agree, then we are actually comparing DAC's smoothing algo (let's call it Algo A), and upsampling software's smoothing algo (let's called it Algo B).

If we just want a smooth audio signal, Algo A can give you smooth audio signal output. Done.

However, if we want the best smoothing algo, Algo B may give you better options. Agree?

Both Algo A and Algo B will give you "fake" values to connect the dots "in your picture". It just happens that Algo B would have more resouces (full computer resources) vs a tiny DAC chip in doing the job.

One more thing, you believe 44.1k is 8k? There is no fixed answer here. To me, IMHO, it is just 720p so I enjoy doing 4k or even 8k upsampling.
Video and audio is quite similar imo, and if we're talking in the digital domain they're very similar actually except that audio is a quite a bit simpler. The easiest way of storing audio is PCM, with the time resolution as samplerate and an amplitude in bits on each sample. An image is the same, but instead of time resolution it got spaital resolution, but in two dimensions instead of one, X and Y, and instead of just one amplitude in bits it got three, R, G and B in bits (and sometimes alpha as well). And if it's a video it got a time dimension as well in framerate.
And all of these is susceptible to the same errors as audio. In audio we have antialiasing filter to filter everything above the Nyquist frequency to not get ugly audible aliasing below it (quite rarely heard nowadays though), aliasing in images is quite a known one that if you're a gamer I guess you've seen creeping pixel aliasing on thin lines etc, or in the old days you could often see it when filming someone with a fabric shirt (also called moiré), and antialiasing in image is essential blur. Aliasing also happen in video as well, the wagon wheel effect, when you can see a moving car where the wheels sometimes look like they're standing still or even rolling backwards, and there the antialiasing is motion blur, ie longer shutter speeds.
Quantizing errors as we get in audio when we don't use dither is audible in reverb tails where the audio kind of flicks on and off, while in images we see it as posterizing or banding, mostly visible in skies. The cure for that is the exact same as in audio with dither/noise.
Me having worked with 3D graphics for a decade or two and been into photography for even longer I do see audio and image quite the same, even though they of course are experienced differently.
And with that experience (and quite good eyesight) I'd say that for almost all usages 8K is around the upper limit for human eyes (4K is still VERY good though), so kind of equivalent to 44.1khz in audio.

Anyways, slightly offtopic I guess, but still relevant since I like to compare it that way since images is less abstract than trying to explain audio with words :)

But yeah IF an offline upsampler could do a better job than an upsampling DAC than it would of course be a benefit of doing it that way, but I've never seen any proof of that. And even a regular 44.1khz DAC with no upsampling can play 44.1khz audio just fine.
 

terryforsythe

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But yeah IF an offline upsampler could do a better job than an upsampling DAC than it would of course be a benefit of doing it that way, but I've never seen any proof of that.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that oversampling is a common feature among DACs these days.

As you infer, this negates the benefit of upsampling the recordings unless someone has a better dithering algorithm than those used in the DACs.
 

pkane

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You just need to listen to try out (I suggest DSD256 or higher with advanced filtering/modulation)

You need to try it with proper listening controls. There's no magic in DSD, just some math, similar to PCM. It's easy to demonstrate that there's very little measurable difference between properly done DSD and PCM, and all of it at a level that's far below human ability to hear.
 

terryforsythe

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However, external OS is just doing a MUCH better job, IMO.
I may have missed it if you posted earlier, but what do you recommend for performing the external oversampling? CamillaDSP?
 

antcollinet

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This remind me the old lossy compression vs lossless CD quality audio debat.

To me perfection is perfection, you got the orignal back. Not something sounds like the original signal.
There is no such thing as perfection by that definition. In anything. It doesn’t exist.

The question is - what benefit is there in chasing more and more accuracy, getting closer to technical perfection, when it makes no difference to the musical experience?
 

antcollinet

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However, external OS is just doing a MUCH better job, IMO
And this is where you need to start making citations. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

In a world where inexpensive OS Dacs are producing results better than the hearing of everyone on the planet, what is your definition of ‘a MUCH better job’, and what evidence (Eg measurements) do you have to back up that statement?
 

antcollinet

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Exactly, you made a very good point.

It does make a diference to the musical experience (at least to me).

If it makes no difference, who would waste time and money for doing it? agreed?

If you tried it (and really try to understand and feel it open heartly) and you still don't like it, it is ok, YMMV.
However, if you didn't try, I bet you may miss one of the easier and cheapest way to enhance your musical experience.
Here is the thing. The measurements and engineering tell us there is no benefit compared to any decently measuring DAC. (See all the ones in the blue and green area of the SINAD chart)

So I don’t need to try it, I already know there is no audible benefit.

Perhaps you ought to be keeping an open mind about the capabilities of your auditory system, particularly around perception/cognitive biases. Perhaps this should be your next area of learning.

In particular you should try doing a properly controlled blind comparison to confirm you can genuinely hear the difference.
 

antcollinet

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As I emphasized, it is just my own personal experience. I hope I don't need to prove my own personal experience.
Actually you probably do. The capabilities (and capabilities to fool you) of the human auditory system are probably not what you think they are.
 

antcollinet

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There is no conflict ;)
Right up until the point (on a science based forum) that people make statements about audio as fact, unsupported by that science, that might then mislead others coming here for good quality fact based information. (Remember that statement you made earlier about basing the discussion on facts?)

(Hint - opinions are not the same as facts)
 
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