Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

[Lambda]

PURIFI seems to have commented on Topping PA5.If it really is Lars from PURIFI, I do not know. Probably so though.

Interesting... i said the same thing as the Purifi guy a couple of sites back.
But no one some here seams to understand what the CCIF test is actually measuring an how to interpret it

 

[pma]

No one?

 

[Lambda]

No one?

sorry.
not no one!
but some are very loud and seem to don't like to see measurements thy don't understand.

 

[Holmz]

Interesting... i said the same thing as the Purifi guy a couple of sites back.
But no one some here seams to understand what the CCIF test is actually measuring an how to interpret it

If you and Lars agree, is it unwise to argue a counter point?

…
Edit:
Then this with THD + N at rising power, at 15 kHz ,if we are to be honest. What can the average age be for those who engage in ASR? How high frequencies do they (and I) hear nowadays?
Maybe if they're going to play for the kids ..or the grandkids.
…

We also have also had amps with wildly high slew rates.
An amplifier than bats and dogs can hear is not a bad thing, and does indicate a level of quality that is better.

And we do not usually question the need for SINAD or SNR that is just a wee bit better than we can detect. The whole deal with metrics and ratings is to provide information.

It is almost apologetic to couple the high freq performance with hear loss.
And I sort of am leaning towards the Purifi (or Hypex) as a Class-D solution… If I did not want to consider a DSP it would be easier to choose Purifi over Hypex.

 

[mario_rouge]

could someone explain to me the meaning of these numbers?
2x140W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 10%
2x125W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 1%
2x85W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 10%
2x65W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 1%

Is there a gain selector between 85w or 65w? If I use it with a preamp, do I have to keep pa5 at maximum volume?
Thank you, I'm sorry for my ignorance.

 

[BoredErica]

could someone explain to me the meaning of these numbers?
2x140W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 10%
2x125W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 1%
2x85W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 10%
2x65W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 1%

Is there a gain selector between 85w or 65w? If I use it with a preamp, do I have to keep pa5 at maximum volume?
Thank you, I'm sorry for my ignorance.

It's not a switch. It's just how much power it can deliver allowing for x% amount of thd+n. Basically it's looking at 10% and 1% thd+n part of a graph. And no, I don't think you have to keep pa5 at max volume if you use a preamp. Nothing terrible will happen.

 

[mdsimon2]

could someone explain to me the meaning of these numbers?
2x140W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 10%
2x125W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 1%
2x85W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 10%
2x65W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 1%

Is there a gain selector between 85w or 65w? If I use it with a preamp, do I have to keep pa5 at maximum volume?
Thank you, I'm sorry for my ignorance.

If you are using a preamp I would keep the PA5 at max volume.

In terms of power output / distortion it just depends on how much voltage you feed it which will depend on the volume position of your preamp.

2x140W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 10%: Vin =sqrt(140 x 4) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.66 V
2x125W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 1%: Vin = sqrt (125 x 4) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.51 V
2x85W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 10%: Vin = sqrt(85 x 8) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.93 V
2x65W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 1%: Vin = sqrt(65 x 8) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.56 V

As you can see the difference really isn't that much.

Michael

 

[mario_rouge]

Thanks to the immediate response! therefore the maximum power at 8ohm is 85w. are 85w real?

It's not a switch. It's just how much power it can deliver allowing for x% amount of thd+n. Basically it's looking at 10% and 1% thd+n part of a graph. And no, I don't think you have to keep pa5 at max volume if you use a preamp. Nothing terrible will happen.

Thanks to the immediate response! therefore the maximum power at 8ohm is 85w. are 85w real?

 

[mario_rouge]

If you are using a preamp I would keep the PA5 at max volume.

In terms of power output / distortion it just depends on how much voltage you feed it which will depend on the volume position of your preamp.

2x140W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 10%: Vin =sqrt(140 x 4) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.66 V
2x125W @ 4Ω, THD+N < 1%: Vin = sqrt (125 x 4) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.51 V
2x85W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 10%: Vin = sqrt(85 x 8) x 10^(-19/20) = 2.93 V
2x65W @ 8Ω, THD+N < 1%: Vin = sqrt (65 x 8) = 10^(-19/20) = 2.56 V

As you can see the difference really isn't that much.

Michael

Very clear! Thank you!

 

[BoredErica]

I just want to share the fact that hifigo doesn't get new batch of pa5 until next week (which I'm assuming will finally have a silver case version), whereas APOS site says they can ship on the 20th, yet I placed an order for pa5 on the 27th last month on hifigo and still don't have it yet. And I'm sad.

 

[Holmz]

Thanks to the immediate response! therefore the maximum power at 8ohm is 85w. are 85w real?
Thanks to the immediate response! therefore the maximum power at 8ohm is 85w. are 85w real?

What does “real” mean?

If the impedence goes higher then the “real” consumed power will be lower, and if the impedence drops then the “real” power goes up.
(But as shown the voltage is the same.)

Then the other “real” is that at 85W, assuming if that would be the peaks… then the RMS power would be 1/20th with a crest factor of 13dB… so about 4W RMS (which is more of the “Real” SPL power.) So with a normal speaker and room, it would probably do 85-90 dB SPL and hit instantaneous peaks in the 100-105 range… using that 4W RMS and the full 80ish watts instantaneous peak.

 

[AudioArchitech]

Wouldn't real world , power we want to use be the <1%thd rated power?

 

[Toku]

This is my soliloquy.
It seems that the measurement result of Topping PA5 this time was a shocking event for fans of Hypex Ncore and Purifi.
However, it is embarrassing to say something that seems to be a slander to ASR and Topping.
If you are a pure engineer, it is important to accept reality obediently. I would like to applaud the Topping technicians who have made the TPA3251 chip an amp with such great characteristics.
Perhaps with the birth of PA5, Hypex Ncore and Purifi will be enthusiastic about developing products with even higher performance.
Anyway, no one can understand the characteristics and sound quality without actually using the PA5. I had already pre-ordered the PA5 before amirm measured it. That's because as an engineer, I wanted to see new technologies as soon as possible. I'm tired of hearing the boring theory.

 

[Walter]

Wouldn't real world , power we want to use be the <1%thd rated power?

That is up to the individual. Personally, I tend to look at both the measured (which in the case of Topping is inline with the rated) peak power at 1% THD plus the sustained measured power at the onset of clipping. But yes, I agree that of the two, for my usage the 1% value is the more important one since it is highly unlikely I've ever used a home amplifier at a sustained 5 watts or more for any length of time in the 44 years since I got my first real stereo--except for one instance when I was trying to get the upstairs neighbor to see reason. (I've regularly run pro amps and car amps well over that level for hours, but that is very much an apples and oranges comparison.)

 

[DanielT]

Interesting... i said the same thing as the Purifi guy a couple of sites back.
But no one some here seams to understand what the CCIF test is actually measuring an how to interpret it

Although Lars from Purifi also mentions that he thinks that Topping PA5 seems to be a good amplifier. There were discussions in that thread about price vs performance.Purifi vs Topping. Quite reasonable. I think a sensible discussion. Same as discussed in this thread. That is, the performance you get from Topping PA5 seen in relation to the price. It seems undeniably good.

How to measure class D is also, of course, a very interesting discussion. As long as it discuss rationally. For some strange reason (I do not understand why) this seems to stir up emotions. Measurements and class D that is.

And we do not usually question the need for SINAD or SNR that is just a wee bit better than we can detect. The whole deal with metrics and ratings is to provide information.

It is almost apologetic to couple the high freq performance with hear loss.
And I sort of am leaning towards the Purifi (or Hypex) as a Class-D solution… If I did not want to consider a DSP it would be easier to choose Purifi over Hypex.

In which case. Topping PA5 clearly seems interesting. Slightly too little effect/power for my taste / needs. Says as others have done that I wait until one comes with about twice as much effect.Although I have amplifiers that I am happy with. However, always fun to think of other solutions.
Split the signal and let designated subwoffer amp take care of everything below, for example, 80 Hz, then PA5 the rest? Maybe that could be something.Just thinking a little bit in general right now. How to fix a sensible Hifi solution.

Edit:
Incidentally, I think that Topping should use its experience and knowledge regarding amplification and DAC and create active speakers.

From the thread DIY forum, see attached picture. Exciting times. Good with competition.

 

[Holmz]

…
In which case. Topping PA5 clearly seems interesting. Slightly too little effect/power for my taste / needs. Says as others have done that I wait until one comes with about twice as much effect.Although I have amplifiers that I am happy with. However, always fun to think of other solutions.
Split the signal and let designated subwoffer amp take care of everything below, for example, 80 Hz, then PA5 the rest? Maybe that could be something.Just thinking a little bit in general right now. How to fix a sensible Hifi solution.
…

Which was sort of my point…
If I need to filter out the woofer and the MR/tweeter for a bi-wire speakers then I need a DSP.
2x $350 topping, + a DSP = ?$

2x a Hypex FA252 or some other Hypes FA###, already has the DSP in it. So I can also chuck the speak cables into the bin, and just run the Hypex at the back of the speaker. And it is not a wall wort, but an approved internal power supply and cord, and no special connectors. The Hypex is either XLR or RCS, and the gain is higher than the PA5.

In the end is seems more appropriate to use a Hypex for this active approach to me.

 

[DanielT]

Which was sort of my point…
If I need to filter out the woofer and the MR/tweeter for a bi-wire speakers then I need a DSP.
2x $350 topping, + a DSP = ?$

2x a Hypex FA252 or some other Hypes FA###, already has the DSP in it. So I can also chuck the speak cables into the bin, and just run the Hypex at the back of the speaker. And it is not a wall wort, but an approved internal power supply and cord, and no special connectors. The Hypex is either XLR or RCS, and the gain is higher than the PA5.

In the end is seems more appropriate to use a Hypex for this active approach to me.

But miniDSP, UMIK-, 1 pc Topping PA5 together some sensible two-way speakers plus subwoffer? Then you can EQ. Usually needed with Subwoffer in any case.
Whether it would work depends on what sensitivity / Ohm speakers have, type of music (what it demands on the amplifier). Size of listening room and at what volume you usually listen to.

I currently have a pair of small two-way speakers. They are good but they really eat power. So for my part, I need to get up to at least 150 W amp, preferably more. Around 200 W.

 

[Holmz]

I mean one needs to run the say 80Hz at some 6, 12, 18, 24 etc slope for the low pass filter (LPF), and then a similar scheme for the high pass.
Otherwise you have the woofer voltage peaks that the MR/Tweeter are riding on, and you gain nothing.

But miniDSP, UMIK-, 1 pc Topping PA5 together some sensible two-way speakers plus subwoffer? Then you can EQ. Usually needed with Subwoffer in any case.
….

So is 2x topping and a MiniDSP more than just a pair of Hypex?
And then you also need the funny cables. So 350 + 350 + MiniDSP, + “funny cables” + speaker cables.

Whereas 2x FA122 is twin 125W so about 950 USD.

Hypex FusionAmp FA122

Hypex FusionAmp FA122

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

So I think in our scenario it is a pretty cogent argument to have the FA122 mounted on the back of the bookshelves, rather than using a pair of the Topping PA5.
No speaker cables, and the same cost of less cost going with the Hypex with built in DSP.

If talk about a three way then the FA123, FA253 or FA503 gives 3 NCores with one being a smaller tweeter power (100W)… Then it is no contest that the Hypex wins over the PA5 in cost.

At least, in my real case, most of the reason for the post is to see if the Hypex makes sense in the scenario I mentioned.
(It is certainly not an attack.)

…
I currently have a pair of small two-way speakers. They are good but they really eat power. So for my part, I need to get up to at least 150 W amp, preferably more. Around 200 W.

I sort of believe you, but without some screen shot of a voltage trace It is hard to be 100% sure.

I would probably roll those books shelf speakers off a 12 db/oct at 60-80Hz, or 100 Hz at 6 dB... Because any low notes, that the speakers cannot really play, is where the huge voltage swings drive the output to the rails.

 

[Holmz]

That is up to the individual. Personally, I tend to look at both the measured (which in the case of Topping is inline with the rated) peak power at 1% THD plus the sustained measured power at the onset of clipping. But yes, I agree that of the two, for my usage the 1% value is the more important one since it is highly unlikely I've ever used a home amplifier at a sustained 5 watts or more for any length of time in the 44 years since I got my first real stereo--except for one instance when I was trying to get the upstairs neighbor to see reason. (I've regularly run pro amps and car amps well over that level for hours, but that is very much an apples and oranges comparison.)

At 1W RMS, with something like classical music at a crest factor (dynmamic range) of 18-20, that 1 watt RMS is almost 100W peak.

At 5 watts sustained, with old-school (pre loudness wars) music you would still be having peaks over 100W.

So the sustained power almost doesn’t matter, except maybe for sub woofers and rap music. It is all about how much clipping is happening and if it is clipping in a distressing way or not.

 

[sound_of_thunder]

Thing is and regarding the Rega Io, which received a total drubbing here - I used one for a morning and loved it!!!

Slightly off topic, but what speakers did you pair it with? And how would you describe the sound signature? Did you feel it lacked bass or the treble was too bright?
Thanks.