Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

[gvl]

One quirk about the MIL (MIL Funny.. abbreviation btw) is that there are significant artifacts below 20khz under the 18kHz or 17.5kHz stimulus which are at least partially hurting the SINAD under 20kHz, so yes it is in line with Amir's and others measurements. Schiit reports conveniently (for them) don't detail this inharmonic junk. This may or may not be an issue with real life HF signal levels, someone with an analyzer needs to dig deeper into this issue to understand the impact.

 

[dc655321]

It's not correct to measure the SINAD at 17.5 kHz within a 20...20.000 Hz bandwidth

What is incorrect about that?

 

[ElNino]

In the end, the SINAD of 118.5 dB measured @ 1kHz is still one of the best achieved by a multibit DAC, so for those looking for such a DAC this one might be an option.

I don’t understand this kind of thinking at all. Yes, it has decent measurements at 1kHz. It also has completely broken measurements at 17.5kHz.

Should we somehow say “good job” because they managed to score well on one metric rather than look at the overall performance?

 

[SIY]

What is incorrect about that?

It will speak to noise, but you miss the distortion.

 

[ElNino]

It will speak to noise, but you miss the distortion.

With typical devices that's true, but in this case, there is a load of unusual inharmonic distortion that makes the 17.5kHz SINAD measurement relevant.

 

[SIY]

With typical devices that's true, but in this case, there is a load of unusual inharmonic distortion that makes the 17.5kHz SINAD measurement relevant.

Likely terminological difference- I lump that in with noise.

 

[tmtomh]

In this case, SINAD measured at 1kHz is very misleading though. SINAD measured at 17.5k is 88 dB. The device's performance falls apart in the upper octave.

If you look at the full set of measurements, in terms of worst case behavior the "More is Less" Yggdrasil measures worse overall than any of the other Yggdrasils. I think Schiit's marketing rhetoric here is borderline dishonest. They acknowledge it sounds worse than the others, but claim it measures better, implying the measurement crowd is wrong. But it just doesn't measure well. Looking at the measurements, I'd rather have either one of the other Yggdrasils. (Well, I'd prefer zero Yggdrasils, but if it was the only option....)

How can 88dB of SINAD at 17.5kHz be "falling apart"? Human sensitivity to distortion and noise is not linear across the audible spectrum.

 

[ElNino]

How can 88dB of SINAD at 17.5kHz be "falling apart"? Human sensitivity to distortion and noise is not linear across the audible spectrum.

Because there are now a series of distortion spikes throughout the audible spectrum (roughly every ~3.5k) that are very atypical for a DAC. See GVL's post above (#1421). This behavior is completely broken. There's no way to charitably describe it otherwise. They don't get credit for "118.5dB" distortion numbers when that performance falls apart by 30 dB depending on where you measure in the audible spectrum.

 

[tmtomh]

Because there are now a series of distortion spikes throughout the audible spectrum (roughly every ~3.5k) that are very atypical for a DAC. See GVL's post above (#1421). This behavior is completely broken. There's no way to charitably describe it otherwise. They don't get credit for "118.5dB" distortion numbers when that performance falls apart by 30 dB depending on where you measure in the audible spectrum.

Okay, makes sense. Thanks!

 

[dc655321]

It will speak to noise, but you miss the distortion.

Ah, terminology. Call it SNR then?

 

[Scienceguy]

Hi:
Question: did you actually listen to the Yggy? We are all aware that ladder dac's do not measure as well as non-ladder types that's why it's vitally important to LISTEN to them before passing judgement on measurements alone. Maybe you should check out the "Denafrips" ladder dacs as there's a lot of great reviews and press from legit audiophile sources as with the "Yggy". Isn't it time to open ones mind after all we don't listen to visual measurements do we. Being a professional musician having been involved in many studio dates, touring etc, there's a saying we all stand by "the proofs in the listening"! Please don't jump on the "measurements are king" bandwagon as I graduated form university with a science degree - sorry.
The Scienceguy.

 

[archerious]

Hi:
Question: did you actually listen to the Yggy? We are all aware that ladder dac's do not measure as well as non-ladder types that's why it's vitally important to LISTEN to them before passing judgement on measurements alone. Maybe you should check out the "Denafrips" ladder dacs as there's a lot of great reviews and press from legit audiophile sources as with the "Yggy". Isn't it time to open ones mind after all we don't listen to visual measurements do we. Being a professional musician having been involved in many studio dates, touring etc, there's a saying we all stand by "the proofs in the listening"! Please don't jump on the "measurements are king" bandwagon as I graduated form university with a science degree - sorry.
The Scienceguy.

I owned a Yiggy GS. Thought I heard a difference between it and Topping D90. Sold my D90.

Then friend brought his D90 over and told me I was a moron and to do a blind test.

Well my signature says it all. I own a RME ADI-2, Benchmark DAC3B, and Gustard X18.

If you believe you hear a difference then go for it, but don't push that on others unless you've done a blind test with that person so they can verify they hear a difference. Otherwise you're encouraging others to spend money for worse measuring equipment for no benefit.

 

[amirm]

Hi:
Question: did you actually listen to the Yggy?

Of course. The last owner that lent me one claimed that it sounded better on a set of audio clips, compared to a Topping DAC. He used Stax headphones. I happened to have all of that. In controlled AB testing at full level, I could not detect any difference between Topping and Yggy.

For another test, I sharply reduced the level of the music digitally. Played that and captured it with both DACs. I then boosted the gain back up. There, I could hear the quantization noise of the Yggy due to incorrect decimation to 20 bits. It was grainy and unpleasant. This was super artificial so I did not promote this.

So no, there is no magic to different DA to conversion. I have never perceived any magic in the sound each technology produces, or even a signature. People who think there is, need to perform the test level matched and blind.

 

[amirm]

Maybe you should check out the "Denafrips" ladder dacs as there's a lot of great reviews and press from legit audiophile sources as with the "Yggy". Isn't it time to open ones mind after all we don't listen to visual measurements do we. Being a professional musician having been involved in many studio dates, touring etc, there's a saying we all stand by "the proofs in the listening"! Please don't jump on the "measurements are king" bandwagon as I graduated form university with a science degree - sorry.
The Scienceguy.

Sorry that you are choosing to not use your science education here. If you had, you would have asked for a listening test that is blind and controlled. There is none that backs anything you say. That is just audiophile folklore.

That aside, Denafrips DACs measure well so I suspect they sound good as well. The problem with them is that they are expensive relative to IC based DACs. So you pay a lot of money for something that doesn't have better performance.

 

[Jimster480]

Hi:
Question: did you actually listen to the Yggy? We are all aware that ladder dac's do not measure as well as non-ladder types that's why it's vitally important to LISTEN to them before passing judgement on measurements alone. Maybe you should check out the "Denafrips" ladder dacs as there's a lot of great reviews and press from legit audiophile sources as with the "Yggy". Isn't it time to open ones mind after all we don't listen to visual measurements do we. Being a professional musician having been involved in many studio dates, touring etc, there's a saying we all stand by "the proofs in the listening"! Please don't jump on the "measurements are king" bandwagon as I graduated form university with a science degree - sorry.
The Scienceguy.

I wrote up a big post in another thread about how degrees don't mean a single thing. This post is a perfect example of what I was conveying in another thread. There is nothing scientific about telling others to listen to something that cannnot be reproduced in measurements. The Yggr is more expensive for no reason. As @amirm mentioned; the limitation of performance of their modules just means that in the best case scenario there will just be no difference vs any decent DS based DAC (including a few of Schiit's own products) and at worst it will be inferior.

I have indeed listened to a Denafrips Ares and I was not impressed. Best case I couldn't tell a difference vs my DX7 (gen 1, ~108 SINAD) and in a few very complex tracks, there were slight losses in micro details. However it isn't something that you would just hear in everyday standard listening. We spend hours listening (about 4 actually) to various sets of test tracks in different formats.
Nothing about this was special. After doing a couple of ABX tests with a switch at a specific point in one track, all 3 of us could confirm that the DX7 was better than the Ares. In most general tracks; there was no magic and the ABX testing proved that. As sighted bias had brought all sorts of audiophile buzz words along with it.

 

[Killingbeans]

We are all aware that ladder dac's do not measure as well as non-ladder types that's why it's vitally important to LISTEN to them before passing judgement on measurements alone.

It will tell you nothing, other than how your knowledge of the DACs affects you psychologically. That's only useful to you as an individual, and it's pointless to use as basis for a recommendation, unless you intend on passing on bias.

 

[Pabloaguas]

Yes, it measures bad but how does it sound? Subjectively?

They must be doing something right because there wouldn’t be so many audiophiles doing subjective listening tests and absolutely preferring these sadly distorted ladder dacs over any perfectly testing sigma delta DAC out there…

 

[Ilkless]

Yes, it measures bad but how does it sound? Subjectively?

They must be doing something right because there wouldn’t be so many audiophiles doing subjective listening tests and absolutely preferring these sadly distorted ladder dacs over any perfectly testing sigma delta DAC out there…

Or people impute favourable listening attributes to it to vindicate the idiosyncratic and arcane technical approach as proof of some superior, ineffable insight

 

[Jimster480]

Yes, it measures bad but how does it sound? Subjectively?

They must be doing something right because there wouldn’t be so many audiophiles doing subjective listening tests and absolutely preferring these sadly distorted ladder dacs over any perfectly testing sigma delta DAC out there…

That is only because of sighted Bias and price. The reality is that this unit would sound worse than any real world high end Delta sigma DAC. Or today even one that costs $100.
The performance when it came out wasn't better than DAC's that were available for around $150 but today there are ones that are $100 and much better.

In a true ABX test; you would either not tell the difference or prefer the higher end DS based DAC.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yes, it measures bad but how does it sound? Subjectively?

They must be doing something right because there wouldn’t be so many audiophiles doing subjective listening tests and absolutely preferring these sadly distorted ladder dacs over any perfectly testing sigma delta DAC out there…

IMO it is probably "good enough" so people are swung by the marketing persuasiveness of the company, so placebo, probably.

A bit like LPs, our ears are nowhere near as good as we think they are so the relatively poor technical performance of a record player is not that bad compared to our listening acuity, so with a few good recordings (the SQ of the recording makes far more difference than that of the equipment audiophiles use to play it on) and some persuasive marketing and there you go.