How concerned should I be on how a amp could affect overall sound signature ?

[Doodski]

Or it's their job to write things like that.

Who cares if it's a job or not. It's dishonest.

 

[fpitas]

Who cares if it's a job or not. It's dishonest.

Right? everybody hates telemarketers, for obvious reasons. But these guys get all sorts of admiration.

 

[Multicore]

Who cares if it's a job or not. It's dishonest.

I like to understand incentives people operate under and the systems that produce the incentives. I find that interesting. I don't mean to suggest we should excuse dishonesty.

 

[Seany]

Well if it is on the internet it must be true. I guess I should also be listening to the sermons on how investing in crypto will make me rich, just doing this one thing will make me live forever, or how pot cures everything.

You asked a question on as forum focused on the science of audio. Double blind tests over the years have show that decent quality amps when not overdriven are indistinguishable from each other. It is amazing, as even the most ardent golden eared people in the world, magically cannot hear the difference when subject to a double blind test, then start with the excuses.

Always someone being a smart ass.

 

[Seany]

I kind of regret making this thread but not really I did learn some things.

 

[fpitas]

I kind of regret making this thread but not really I did learn some things.

I'm glad you learned. That thread title is like sticking your hand in a wall socket around here

 

[Seany]

"I'd like to get a nice amp for the long haul and eventfully like to get some new speakers"

Determine your budget.
Break it down in a ratio of three to one. Or four to one.
One-third (or one-fourth) is your reasonable cost for an amplifier.
The rest is on your speakers.
Now you at least understand on the basis of what you will make a choice.
Select loudspeakers. Be sure to listen to them in the salon.
The speakers you listen to in the salon are always better than the technically very good speakers you have never heard before.
Choosing an amplifier is very simple now. Just buy any good brands for the money available to you. Denon, Rotel, Audiolab, Hegel, they are all very good, otherwise these companies would sell Bluetooth boomboxes for $10 on eBay
That, in fact, is the whole secret.

So it sounds like what your saying is spend 3 times on speakers vs electronics. So if that is true if my current electronics cost around $600, so I should be looking at speakers around $1800 ? my current Elacs only cost me $700. So if I buy a new amp for $1700 then I should be looking at speakers in $5100 ballpark, these numbers seem off the chart for speakers.

 

[Doodski]

So it sounds like what your saying is spend 3 times on speakers vs electronics. So if that is true if my current electronics cost around $600, so I should be looking at speakers around $1800 ? my current Elacs only cost me $700. So if I buy a new amp for $1700 then I should be looking at speakers in $5100 ballpark, these numbers seem off the chart for speakers.

Actually they are maybe a little boosted but 2 to 3 times is not unusual. I would not spend $1700 on amp and $900 on speakers.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

So it sounds like what your saying is spend 3 times on speakers vs electronics. So if that is true if my current electronics cost around $600, so I should be looking at speakers around $1800 ? my current Elacs only cost me $700. So if I buy a new amp for $1700 then I should be looking at speakers in $5100 ballpark, these numbers seem off the chart for speakers.

Proportionally, no. When you now know that almost all amps sound the same, why would you buy something too expensive? It should only be able to supply enough power for your needs with as low noise as possible. Then amp shopping should be much much cheaper.

I consider an amp for 1700 USD for your Elacs very much disproportional.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

So it sounds like what your saying is spend 3 times on speakers vs electronics. So if that is true if my current electronics cost around $600, so I should be looking at speakers around $1800 ? my current Elacs only cost me $700. So if I buy a new amp for $1700 then I should be looking at speakers in $5100 ballpark, these numbers seem off the chart for speakers.

Yes, it's a very rational tactics.
Of course, you can do what you want but be sure Rotel Michi X5 will not improve $2K speakers in any way.
And all this is not scary, because in every price category everything is not so bad, and you can build excellent systems.

 

[FrankW]

So it sounds like what your saying is spend 3 times on speakers vs electronics. So if that is true if my current electronics cost around $600, so I should be looking at speakers around $1800 ?

There's no such rule. However, given that your current receiver looks pretty decent features and power wise, you could most certainly "improve" your sound with $1800 speakers. Almost never clear on audio forums are the specifics of what one/you think is deficient with your current setup? Not loud enough? Poor image? etc.
One nice thing is that places like Crutchfield (I swear I don't work for them ), where I got my Revel F36s (for <$1800 on sale), does have a return policy. A nice option, not to be abused. Without ridding yourself of current speakers, give a new pair a try, compare. Even smaller floorstanders (which tend to occupy same/less space than stand bases) will have deeper bass and higher sensitivity. That should help "improve" the sound, YMMV. It's possible with new speakers you might not need new electronics at all.

 

[Seany]

Proportionally, no. When you now know that almost all amps sound the same, why would you buy something too expensive? It should only be able to supply enough power for your needs with as low noise as possible. Then amp shopping should be much much cheaper.

I consider an amp for 1700 USD for your Elacs very much disproportional.

So you mention noise and others have also and how important it is. So for example take these amps I was looking at. The specs I copied from Crutchfield website. Well I don't use phono or headphones. I listen to music through Spotify so which spec must I look at for my use the signal-to-noise ratio or THD spec ?? I copied both here, the last one at the bottom is my AVR.

Rotel A14 MKII (signal-to-noise ratio: 100 dB (line); 90 dB (phono); 103 dB (digital) ---OR--- (80 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.018% THD)

Denon PMA-1700NE (signal-to-noise ratio: 107 dB (line in), 89 dB (moving magnet), 74 dB (moving coil) ---OR--- (70 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.07% THD)

Audiolab 7000A (signal-to-noise ratio: line-level 110 dB, phono 76 dB) ---OR--- (70 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at <1% THD)

What I currently own, Onkyo TX-NR6100 (can't find the signal-to-noise ratio) ---OR--- (100 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven)

 

[FrankW]

What I currently own, Onkyo TX-NR6100 (can't find the signal-to-noise ratio) ---OR--- (100 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven)

https://onkyousa.com/receivers/av-receivers/tx-nr6100

Power output (All channels) 210 W/Ch (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD,1-ch driven) 100 W/Ch (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-ch driven, FTC)
Dynamic power 240 W (3 ohms, Front) 210 W (4 ohms, Front) 120 W (8 ohms, Front)
THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise) 0.08% (20 Hz–20 kHz, half power)
Input sensitivity and impedance 200 mV rms/47 k-ohms (Line) 3.5 mV rms/47 k-ohms (Phono MM)
Rated RCA output level and impedance 1 V rms/470 ohms (Subwoofer pre-out) 200 mV rms/470 ohms (Zone 2/Zone B line-out)
Frequency response 10 Hz–100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Direct/Pure Audio)
Tone control ±10 dB, 20 Hz (Bass) ±10 dB, 20 kHz (Treble)
Signal-to-noise ratio 106 dB (Line, IHF-A) 80 dB (Phono, IHF-A)
Speaker impedance 4–16 ohms

 

[Deleted member 48726]

So you mention noise and others have also and how important it is. So for example take these amps I was looking at. The specs I copied from Crutchfield website. Well I don't use phono or headphones. I listen to music through Spotify so which spec must I look at for my use the signal-to-noise ratio or THD spec ?? I copied both here, the last one at the bottom is my AVR.

Rotel A14 MKII (signal-to-noise ratio: 100 dB (line); 90 dB (phono); 103 dB (digital) ---OR--- (80 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.018% THD)

Denon PMA-1700NE (signal-to-noise ratio: 107 dB (line in), 89 dB (moving magnet), 74 dB (moving coil) ---OR--- (70 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.07% THD)

Audiolab 7000A (signal-to-noise ratio: line-level 110 dB, phono 76 dB) ---OR--- (70 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at <1% THD)

What I currently own, Onkyo TX-NR6100 (can't find the signal-to-noise ratio) ---OR--- (100 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven)

I don't know any of them. I'd be looking at the capability of low impedance drive. The noise levels are so low on either that you would not need to worry about it.

 

[Seany]

I don't know any of them. I'd be looking at the capability of low impedance drive. The noise levels are so low on either that you would not need to worry about it.

I'm really not trying to sound like a smarty pants, but why did you say and I quote "It should only be able to supply enough power for your needs with as low noise as possible."

Now your saying "The noise levels are so low on either that you would not need to worry about it." well that's what I thought in the first place but when you mentioned something about the noise levels I'm like well is there something about the noise levels I need to know about. It's all good anyway.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I'm really not trying to sound like a smarty pants, but why did you say and I quote "It should only be able to supply enough power for your needs with as low noise as possible."

Now your saying "The noise levels are so low on either that you would not need to worry about it." well that's what I thought in the first place but when you mentioned something about the noise levels I'm like well is there something about the noise levels I need to know about. It's all good anyway.

My statement was in general. Then you listed three specific amps of which I don't see anything IR to noise that should be audible.

 

[SuicideSquid]

So you mention noise and others have also and how important it is. So for example take these amps I was looking at. The specs I copied from Crutchfield website. Well I don't use phono or headphones. I listen to music through Spotify so which spec must I look at for my use the signal-to-noise ratio or THD spec ?? I copied both here, the last one at the bottom is my AVR.

Rotel A14 MKII (signal-to-noise ratio: 100 dB (line); 90 dB (phono); 103 dB (digital) ---OR--- (80 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.018% THD)

Denon PMA-1700NE (signal-to-noise ratio: 107 dB (line in), 89 dB (moving magnet), 74 dB (moving coil) ---OR--- (70 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.07% THD)

Audiolab 7000A (signal-to-noise ratio: line-level 110 dB, phono 76 dB) ---OR--- (70 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at <1% THD)

What I currently own, Onkyo TX-NR6100 (can't find the signal-to-noise ratio) ---OR--- (100 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven)

Manufacturers' reported SNR and distortion are often not comparable - they're measured at different levels, frequencies, or just plum made up. If possible try to find third party measurements from the same source and compare those.

That being said, for all of your above examples, noise and distortion will both be inaudible in the overwhelming majority of use cases. Try sitting in your normal listening position, turn your amplifier up to the loudest you'd typically listen to music, but don't put any signal through. Do you hear any hiss? Go right up to your speaker and put your ear next to the tweeter. You'll probably hear a very quiet hiss that will be totally inaudible as soon as you step back.

Likewise for distortion - >0.1%THD is simply not audible so don't worry about it. As others have noted, distortion only really comes into play with bad amplifier designs, tube amps, or if you're driving the amplifier into clipping territory.

 

[Seany]

Manufacturers' reported SNR and distortion are often not comparable - they're measured at different levels, frequencies, or just plum made up. If possible try to find third party measurements from the same source and compare those.

That being said, for all of your above examples, noise and distortion will both be inaudible in the overwhelming majority of use cases. Try sitting in your normal listening position, turn your amplifier up to the loudest you'd typically listen to music, but don't put any signal through. Do you hear any hiss? Go right up to your speaker and put your ear next to the tweeter. You'll probably hear a very quiet hiss that will be totally inaudible as soon as you step back.

Likewise for distortion - >0.1%THD is simply not audible so don't worry about it. As others have noted, distortion only really comes into play with bad amplifier designs, tube amps, or if you're driving the amplifier into clipping territory.

So it's safe to assume if you hear hiss at full volume while sitting in your chair then there's definitely problem....right ?

 

[SuicideSquid]

So it's safe to assume if you hear hiss at full volume while sitting in your chair then there's definitely problem....right ?

Do you ever listen at full volume? Test this at the maximum level you actually use.

If you hear hiss at a level you will actually be listening at, this is a starting point, not an end point. First, how loud is the hiss? Would it be noticeable when you're actually listening to a signal? If you can hear it but it's just at the threshold of audibility at your maximum listening volume, why worry? You're never going to actually notice when listening to music. If it's clearly audible, then you need to isolate the source of the noise - it isn't necessarily the amplifier. Check different inputs. Check noise levels when you're connected to different sources. Check digital vs. analog inputs. If you're hearing the same amount of noise on all inputs all the time, and it's a level that bothers you, then you may wish to look at replacing the amplifier.

My money's on you not being able to hear any noise at your typical listening distance at a volume level you're actually going to be using, though.

 

[Doodski]

Manufacturers' reported SNR and distortion are often not comparable - they're measured at different levels, frequencies, or just plum made up. If possible try to find third party measurements from the same source and compare those.

That being said, for all of your above examples, noise and distortion will both be inaudible in the overwhelming majority of use cases. Try sitting in your normal listening position, turn your amplifier up to the loudest you'd typically listen to music, but don't put any signal through. Do you hear any hiss? Go right up to your speaker and put your ear next to the tweeter. You'll probably hear a very quiet hiss that will be totally inaudible as soon as you step back.

Likewise for distortion - >0.1%THD is simply not audible so don't worry about it. As others have noted, distortion only really comes into play with bad amplifier designs, tube amps, or if you're driving the amplifier into clipping territory.

Good post. I will add to it and post this short and interesting video to watch and see about distortion in real world terms.