Mivera Audio DAC

[Mivera]

Fair enough. So this begs the question, what is your suite of measurements and why aren't you posting them on your site or here? I'm not trying to be confrontational but must say I'm curious since you're selling something and am pro measurements based on your comments on this forum.

The problem with posting measurements is most of the industry standard measurements are useless in regards to telling how good the DAC will sound. A $9 IPhone lightning DAC will pas most industry standard tests with flying colours. Yet certainly doesn't sound that way when listening. There's real reasons, and I believe everything is measurable with the proper testing.

 

[jtwrace]

The problem with posting measurements is most of the industry standard measurements are useless in regards to telling how good the DAC will sound. A $9 IPhone lightning DAC will pas most industry standard tests with flying colours. Yet certainly doesn't sound that way when listening. There's real reasons, and I believe everything is measurable with the proper testing.

OK, so why not post measurements the way you think they should be done and explain yourself?

For example, I think the way Neurochrome does is the best I've ever seen.
https://www.neurochrome.com/minidsp-4x10-hd/
https://www.neurochrome.com/o2-headphone-amp/

 

[Mivera]

Question: on scale 1 to 10 with 10 being 100%, how much do you believe in the knowledge of said inventor's understanding of jitter audibility?

Well I believe back in 1992 when the Jtest was invented it was a cutting edge test. However it's very outdated when dealing with the ultra low jitter levels of today's best gear.

 

[Mivera]

OK, so why not post measurements the way you think they should be done and explain yourself?

For example, I think the way Neurochrome does is the best I've ever seen.
https://www.neurochrome.com/minidsp-4x10-hd/
https://www.neurochrome.com/o2-headphone-amp/

Because I'd rather have people listen to the product and decide if they like it. Not try to come to conclusions based on numbers they don't understand anyways.

 

[jtwrace]

Because I'd rather have people listen to the product and decide if they like it. Not try to come to conclusions based on numbers they don't understand anyways.

Doesn't that contradict what you've said in the other measurement threads?

 

[amirm]

First of all you need to know the phase noise of the clock right before the conversion to analog. Following that you'll need the proper gear in order to find how different phase noise levels in the digital domain affect the analog domain. It will take some experimentation. For now I'm comfortable with the digital domain tests. However once I get the Microsemi 5125A I'm going to play around and see if I can get some kind of correlation.

I am asking how you measure the jitter that comes out of the DAC. That is what I hook up to my amplifier.

What is the test for that? I don't hook up my amp to clock circuit or anything like that.

 

[Mivera]

Doesn't that contradict what you've said in the other measurement threads?

All depends on the thread. When you're talking about power supply related noises, it's universally accepted that higher noise is detrimental to sound. Nobody from any camp will argue against that.

 

[Mivera]

I am asking how you measure the jitter that comes out of the DAC. That is what I hook up to my amplifier.

What is the test for that? I don't hook up my amp to clock circuit or anything like that.

Why even bother measuring the output of the DAC? After all it goes into the amp after that. You don't put your ears up to either the DAC or amp output and hear sound either. So why not just measure the speakers? If changing out the DAC has no effect on the measured result from the speakers, I suppose you can say there was no change.

 

[jtwrace]

All depends on the thread. When you're talking about power supply related noises, it's universally accepted that higher noise is detrimental to sound. Nobody from any camp will argue against that.

That's not true. You were quick to get all over Alex from UpTone.

You just said in post #24 above that "Because I'd rather have people listen to the product and decide if they like it. Not try to come to conclusions based on numbers they don't understand anyways."

I'm sorry Mivera but that is absolutely no different than Alex from UpTone saying he has sold more than $2M of product to thousands of customers and they're happy so what does it matter?? I'm sorry but it doesn't go both ways.

 

[Mivera]

That's not true. You were quick to get all over Alex from UpTone.

You just said in post #24 above that "Because I'd rather have people listen to the product and decide if they like it. Not try to come to conclusions based on numbers they don't understand anyways."

I'm sorry Mivera but that is absolutely no different than Alex from UpTone saying he has sold more than $2M of product to thousands of customers and they're happy so what does it matter?? I'm sorry but it doesn't go both ways.

The big difference with Alex and his power supply is he's claiming it blocks leakage current and has extremely low ripple, yet measured results don't reflect it. The only measured result I share from my DAC is the phase noise of the clock. Anyone can feel free to measure the phase noise of my clocks if they wish and share results.

 

[jtwrace]

The big difference with Alex and his power supply is he's claiming it blocks leakage current and has extremely low ripple, yet measured results don't reflect it. The only measured result I share from my DAC is the phase noise of the clock. Anyone can feel free to measure the phase noise of my clocks if they wish and share results.

So in other words, you only care about power supply measurements; otherwise you want someone to judge your dac purely subjectively. Yes?

 

[amirm]

Why even bother measuring the output of the DAC? After all it goes into the amp after that. You don't put your ears up to either the DAC or amp output and hear sound either. So why not just measure the speakers? If changing out the DAC has no effect on the measured result from the speakers, I suppose you can say there was no change.

OK, fine. What would you feed that DAC for jitter to show up at the speakers?

 

[Mivera]

So in other words, you only care about power supply measurements; otherwise you want someone to judge your dac purely subjectively. Yes?

No I'm saying some things require more than run of the mill industry standard testing to get the full story. Power supply performance can easily be measured and better performing results are universally accepted as sounding superior. I don't know any manufacturer who voices their gear with noise passed through the end users mains.

 

[jtwrace]

No I'm saying some things require more than run of the mill industry standard testing to get the full story. Power supply performance can easily be measured and better performing results are universally accepted as sounding superior. I don't know any manufacturer who voices their gear with noise passed through the end users mains.

Perfect. So why not share what matters to you and explain it? Stop tap dancing around the questions and answer them directly. I don't understand how a team of 8 Engineers don't have any objective data to share and am not willing to share and explain their view. Makes zero sense to me.

 

[Mivera]

OK, fine. What would you feed that DAC for jitter to show up at the speakers?

We can just forget about jitter if you think testing speaker output is good enough.

You see when you're building complete audio components, the performance of every subsection matters. And every subcomponent requires a different set of measurements to get any meaningful data. So just jumping right to the end just won't cut it. This is why digital related distortion should be measured in the digital domain. Not from the analog out, the amp, the speaker etc.

 

[Mivera]

Perfect. So why not share what matters to you and explain it? Stop tap dancing around the questions and answer them directly. I don't understand how a team of 8 Engineers don't have any objective data to share and am not willing to share and explain their view. Makes zero sense to me.

Because unless proper measurements are an widely accepted standard, the data would be meaningless to the crowd who cares anyways. Best to just let folks listen and decide if they like the product or not. This way we don't have armchair engineers who don't understand what matters thinking it's the same as an IPhone DAC before listening to it.

 

[jtwrace]

Because unless proper measurements are an widely accepted standard, the data would be meaningless to the crowd who cares anyways. Best to just let folks listen and decide if they like the product or not. This way we don't have armchair engineers who don't understand what matters thinking it's the same as an IPhone DAC before listening to it.

Sorry but that's a total cop-out as Engineers don't do that. They take data, understand data, explain themselves and maybe even have their peers review their work. Honestly, it's almost like you read the book very well that you said Alex did here. It's really a shame as I was hoping that this site would alleviate the mass marketing BS in audio. However, you're not helping the cause at all. The amount of trusted manufactures in this hobby is so small it's sickening!

 

[Mivera]

Sorry but that's a total cop-out as Engineers don't do that. They take data, understand data, explain themselves and maybe even have their peers review their work. Honestly, it's almost like you read the book very well that you said Alex did here. It's really a shame as I was hoping that this site would alleviate the mass marketing BS in audio. However, you're not helping the cause at all. The amount of trusted manufactures in this hobby is so small it's sickening!

Anyone is free to measure my Mivera Stack all they want. The results won't be poor I can assure you of that. But good luck finding out why my $3000 DAC is neck and neck with the $90000 MSB Select with an APx machine connected to the analog outs.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pos...ne-rig-focal-utopia-mivera-superstack.838570/

 

[jtwrace]

Anyone is free to measure my Mivera Stack all they want. The results won't be poor I can assure you of that. But good luck finding out why my $3000 DAC is neck and neck with the $90000 MSB Select with an APx machine connected to the analog outs.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pos...ne-rig-focal-utopia-mivera-superstack.838570/

Honestly, I don't care why, I care about what it looks like not solely how it sounds. That's what I've been asking here. If you say the results won't be poor, that must mean you've measured it, yes? Alex said the same thing and has yet to post anything. So that's OK too? smh

 

[Mivera]

Honestly, I don't care why, I care about what it looks like not solely how it sounds. That's what I've been asking here. If you say the results won't be poor, that must mean you've measured it, yes? Alex said the same thing and has yet to post anything. So that's OK too? smh

Of course I measured it. Think we just soldered parts onto a board, popped the in a case, and have a DAC that competes with the best of the best with no test gear used?