2022 Parts Express [Speaker Design Competition] - Over $300 Category

[DanielT]

Fun, inspiring video. Good variety of different types of design principles and sizes of speakers.

That passive crossover filter, a speaker in the video, doesn't look very cheap, so to speak:

I would have been curious to listen to those:

 

[DanielT]

Might as well post another video:

 

[617]

I've sort of gotten off the DIY thing for a while now, what with the amazing speakers at low price points you can buy, and since I've evolved a better appreciation for the science of speaker design.

Having said that, I have so much respect for people who explore truly bizarre speaker radiation patterns like this. An omni with a horn? And it's passive? And it looks cool?

When I refer to speaker design being an art I'm not referring to what you can see, but what is invisible. This is a great example of that. You like the expansive omni midrange, the focused horn treble and you need serious bass. What a cool design.

 

[617]

OH MY GOD THE WIRE MESH BAFFLE. Such a cool idea! If you refined that design it would be very fashionable. What cool work.

@Wolf I see you did a very odd omni sub/satellite system. I stepped away from PETT a while back but I'm amazed to see so many omni and dipole designs. Looks like the community is doing some very cool stuff.

 

[DanielT]

I've sort of gotten off the DIY thing for a while now, what with the amazing speakers at low price points you can buy, and since I've evolved a better appreciation for the science of speaker design.

Having said that, I have so much respect for people who explore truly bizarre speaker radiation patterns like this. An omni with a horn? And it's passive? And it looks cool?

When I refer to speaker design being an art I'm not referring to what you can see, but what is invisible. This is a great example of that. You like the expansive omni midrange, the focused horn treble and you need serious bass. What a cool design.

You are absolutely right, and you are not alone in thinking that you get a lot of speakers, ready-made commercial ones, for relatively little money these days.
However, DIY as a hobby, because it's a fun pastime is another matter. Expect that what the stuff costs ( if you buy new stuff), you won't get that money back by a long shot if you then sell your DIY. But hey, you have to have fun in life too.

I wonder those DIY guys in those videos, how much they calculate, in simulation software, and measure up on their speakers with measuring microphone (for FR, on-off axes and possibly distortion) VS how much "go by feeling"? It's their project so of course they can do what they want. I was just a little curious about that.

 

[DanielT]

OH MY GOD THE WIRE MESH BAFFLE. Such a cool idea! If you refined that design it would be very fashionable. What cool work.

@Wolf I see you did a very odd omni sub/satellite system. I stepped away from PETT a while back but I'm amazed to see so many omni and dipole designs. Looks like the community is doing some very cool stuff.

He he, you see... inspiration.

Fun to watch those videos even if you don't intend to do any DIY of your own.

 

[617]

You are absolutely right, and you are not alone in thinking that you get a lot of speakers, ready-made commercial ones, for relatively little money these days.
However, DIY as a hobby, because it's a fun pastime is another matter. Expect that what the stuff costs ( if you buy new stuff), you won't get that money back by a long shot if you then sell your DIY. But hey, you have to have fun in life too.

I wonder those DIY guys in those videos, how much they calculate, in simulation software, and measure up on their speakers with measuring microphone (for FR, on-off axes and possibly distortion) VS how much "go by feeling"? It's their project so of course they can do what they want. I was just a little curious about that.

I think they go by feeling when they initiate the project, or they want to hear something that nobody has made before. A high dynamic range dipole is not something you can easily find and listen to. However, once they start designing I'm sure they're looking at measurements, although measuring a weirdly shaped omni is not necessarily unless it has a lot of symmetry.

I would love to hear some of these - in the user's living room.

Incidentally, the best idea, in my opinion, is the big dipole. I would have done it differently but dipoles are normally output restricted due to the amount of sound energy that is cancelled out, so using huge drivers is a really interesting idea (it's a shame you need to rely on a pro sound coaxial at HF, that's where I would have dome something different - maybe a high output pro mid and two dome tweeters face to face)

 

[D!sco]

Lots more talk of directivity this year... wonder who's to blame for that?

 

[DanielT]

Lots more talk of directivity this year... wonder who's to blame for that?

Who then? Now I got curious. Do you mean a specific person or a general general trend within the DIY community to talk about, focus more on directivity
this year?

Is it inside information that you who are active in these events know?

Edit:
If any of you showing your speakers in those videos are reading this thread, well done!
And of course if you feel like it, please comment. It would be nice to hear from any of you..

... Of course, comments from others are also fun.

 

[D!sco]

Do you mean a specific person or a general general trend within the DIY community

Basically this, ASR and Erin's Audio corner seems to have changed and improved the foundation that many speakers are built upon. The new and exciting omni and dipole designs are a fun side effect. A lot fewer "I guessed and it was right" answers than previous videos from Parts Express expos from earlier years. People selecting drivers for their directivity and not just range/output. Lots of highly corrected speakers.

 

[617]

Who then? Now I got curious. Do you mean a specific person or a general general trend within the DIY community to talk about, focus more on directivity
this year?

Is it inside information that you who are active in these events know?

Edit:
If any of you showing your speakers in those videos are reading this thread, well done!
And of course if you feel like it, please comment. It would be nice to hear from any of you..

... Of course, comments from others are also fun.

I think Siegfried Linkwitz deserves some credit as well.

 

[Timcognito]

Thanks for posting, great videos and if you enter please update us. For me this so inciting but with home repairs, a 10'x20' half finished greenhouse and yet to be started aquarium inside a 1950 Motorola TV console, to mention a few, well lets just say, the wife will kill me. My last speakers were in 1979/80 and want to do it again.

Edit: may be putting speakers in there. Hope fish like jazz.

 

[DanielT]

Loudspeakers with very wide dispersion, even omni speakers were shown in the videos. Cool to have as a goal both omni plus more pin point image in one and the same speaker package. I hardly thought it would even work. There should be some kind of compromise, right? But what do I know, if it works it works.
It must be an incredibly awesome sound. I thought of these:

And these seem to have a lot of potential!:

A little OT , not related to any of the speakers at the Parts Express [Speaker Design Competition] but if we now talking about dispersion. When it is necessary to direct the sound. Imagine an airport where only those standing in a part of the airport are to receive information, but you don't want to spread the sound, the message around everywhere:

They have some cool gifs on their website:

Animated Directivity Demos | Audio Spotlight by Holosonics

See these animated directivity demos of audio waves, demonstrating the science behind how Holosonics' Audio Spotlight directional speakers work.

www.holosonics.com

 

[Duke]

I think Perry Marshall's controlled-pattern fullrange dipole speaker is BRILLIANT. Thank you @DanielT for the heads-up.

 

[Wolf]

OH MY GOD THE WIRE MESH BAFFLE. Such a cool idea! If you refined that design it would be very fashionable. What cool work.

@Wolf I see you did a very odd omni sub/satellite system. I stepped away from PETT a while back but I'm amazed to see so many omni and dipole designs. Looks like the community is doing some very cool stuff.

Yes my Oddball 2.1 design was there in the unlimited category because it was able to compete in the smaller room. It's amazing what that little thing will do. Those two inch up firing Omni drivers just dispersed like crazy and then they just seem so huge. The subwoofer is just very very capable for no bigger than a loaf of bread.

Dan's cardioid tweeter in the wg-omni is a really nice touch. I got the stuffed wiffle ball idea for my MM satellite pair from Dan's stuffed waveguides.

 

[DanielT]

Yes my Oddball 2.1 design was there in the unlimited category because it was able to compete in the smaller room. It's amazing what that little thing will do. Those two inch up firing Omni drivers just dispersed like crazy and then they just seem so huge. The subwoofer is just very very capable for no bigger than a loaf of bread.

Dan's cardioid tweeter in the wg-omni is a really nice touch. I got the stuffed wiffle ball idea for my MM satellite pair from Dan's stuffed waveguides.

Thanks for participating Wolf, so the rest of us have something to look at. Very fun and inspiring builds, I must say. Yours and others'! Your cheap try out project is exactly what I think DIY should be: To try, experiment and have fun. Good job and clever thing about the table providing baffle support with that up firing Omni drivers.

Speaking of upward facing drivers. Stig Carlsson designed his OA 5 type 2 with that. Sweden's all-time best-selling speakers. It was sold in incredible quantities in the early 70s. A two-way construction with Philips 9710 as bass/ mid and four Peerless MT20 tweeters. Made to spread the sound in the listening room...well this is what they look like so you understand:

SONAB: OA5 type 2 | Audiophile News & Music Review

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERAOLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA...

www.hifianswers.com

carlsson story

Edit:
The speakers Stig Carlsson created over the years became more direct-acting in the sound image. I don't know what causes it. Changed sound ideal? This is what his last creation looked like, the Carlsson OA-52.2 from 1996.:

But now perhaps the pendulum has swung back and it is more omnis that apply? That considering the DIYs showcased at the 2022 Parts Express [Speaker Design Competition].

 

[Wolf]

As Dan says, the omni design is a more diffuse but huge Soundstage, and the use with a conventional tweeter sounds a bit unnatural due to the power response shift. I imagine Stig was trying to reduce one and increase the other as time went on to meet in the middle and sound more balanced to the ear.

In my omni Mind-blowing Minisculities sats, the goal was not to lose sensitivity in them and allow all the drivers to handle the amp power available as well as match driver sensitivities. I used 2 woofers at a higher net impedance for more power tolerance and force cancellation.
The no BSC discovery was an accident when I knocked over a jambox on a desk and noticed the increase in bass immediately. Thought through, it's no different than a wall mount low BSC design that way. Since the 2" drivers are only 82dB, this worked out well. I just had them, and they are a benign poly cone and fit the $1 Dollar Tree boxes perfectly. The finely tuned bandpass woofer alignment allows for a shift to a lower xover frequency acoustically, and avoids the dsp/electronic xover inherent at 150Hz. It also rolls it off steeper on top and can provide gain in a narrower bandwidth. The $5 pre-made boxes were a plus too.

Novel with no mumbo jumbo, enough so that Jerry shook his head in disbelief, Tom could not believe the expansive sound, and all were impressed with the bass capabilities.

Thanks for your compliments. I am not a DSP guy, and just mess around sometimes to try something out without that 'cheat' available.

 

[DanielT]

Wolf: Exciting and again, I take off my hat and bow. Great job. Cool project.

A reasonably long OT follows but is still somewhat in line with this regarding dispersion. How it happened that the development with Stig's speakers went in the direction they did? I don't know if it's because Stig changed his sound ideals or the market, the demand, changed and he followed that trend.

A bit of HiFi history. Stig Carlsson's apprentices included John Larsen, Peter Steindel and Ingvar Öhman.
Of these, outside of Sweden, John Larsen is the most famous. Here one of his creations, clearly influenced by Stig Carlsson:

"Larsen speakers continue the development of the highly acclaimed Carlsson Acoustics OA-52, which Stig Carlsson developed in the 1980s with John Larsen. John Larsen worked with Carlsson for 16 years, and when Stig Carlsson died, Larsen took over production of Carlsson Acoustics speakers and further improved on that innovative design to create the Larsen speakers."

Larsen HiFi 8 loudspeaker Manufacturer's Comment

Manufacturer's Comment Editor: We are very grateful to Art Dudley for all his high praise and many accolades of the Larsen 8 speaker in his insightful and positive review. We appreciate all his efforts. As Art rightfully states, the Larsen 8 is a speaker for music lovers who want to forget the...

www.stereophile.com

But FR quite bad, should be added:

Larsen HiFi 8 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I was intrigued by the Larsen 8 loudspeaker. More than 40 years ago, I had auditioned a pair of the late Stig Carlsson's unique Sonab speakers and come away with mixed feelings: While Carlsson's original designs, with their arrays of tweeters pointing in all directions...

www.stereophile.com

Then Stig Carlsson's model OA 12 from the 1970s actually measures better, measured by the state's testing institute. The lower curves are distortion measurements:

OA 12 was Stig Carlsson's own favorite among the 1970 models. Now available to buy upgrade kits for them, bass tweeter, plus crossover. Kit made by Ingvar Öhman, or if it was John Larsen who made that replacement kit, I don't remember. Then they look like this, with that upgrade kit:

Here, Stig Carlsson went "all in" with his model OA-2212. Or everything rather out, outwardly directed that is, as seen in the picture.:

Here are the models for those who are curious to see what they look like:

Högtalarna - CarlssonPlanet

Välj en modell nedan för att fortsätta.

www.carlssonplanet.com

Here are Peter Steindel's speakers:

Bremen.se

Here is a model from Ingvar Öhman:

Guru Audio

Dynamite Audio to the People

guruaudio.com

Edit:
By the way, Stig Carlsson himself was not involved in the creation of Yamaha sound, HiFi division. It has been claimed that. It was Sonab, Stig's disciple Peter Steindel:

"Yamaha did not manufacture, develop or sell hi-fi at that time. Sonab entered into an agreement with Yamaha to build a development department and manufacture of hifi in Japan. Clas-Göran Wanning was the person who designed the electronics in Sonab. He was stationed in Japan and jointly built Yamaha as a manufacturing company of hifi for Sonab. So, Sonab,were the first hi-fi products that Yamaha manufactured. Lars Lallerstedt was responsible for industrial design. When Sonab withdrew from hi-fi, Yamaha had to take over laboratories and development department and Yamaha began to develop, manufacture, market and sell hi-fi products under its own brand.

Sincerely
Peter"

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Var Stig inblandad i Sonabs elektronik?

Sonab:

"Stig Carlsson began designing speakers in the 1950s. In 1966 he founded the company Sonab. In the late 1960s, Sonab ended up in an acute economic crisis and was taken over in 1969 by state-owned companies. State-owned companies gave Stig Carlsson substantial research resources and after a couple of years, the 1970s series could be presented. In 1978, state government shut down Sonab and all speaker production, this after losing one hundred million kronor by trying to manufacture and sell poorly developed mobile phones without a market."

The mobile phone thing, I wonder if that's true, but other than that it was correct.

Sonab – Wikipedia

sv.wikipedia.org

Edit:
Okay, it was a rather long OT, I admit, but a little HiFi history is fun to learn about. I think so anyway.

 

[DanielT]

More fun projects:

Edit:
Speaking of Dayton, here appears to be a new series from them:

Dayton Audio - Pro Series

Pro Series

www.daytonaudio.com

 

[lamode]

so who won?